Oh, so it must be right, then. Dear, dear.
I see. So a 100% overload all the time was OK for the domestic consumer, who the gas boards could push around because they had no choice......
Presumably because the customers had deeper pockets and would complain....
Oh definitely. If this is true, it's revealing but not surprising.
I don't buy that at all. With the increasing number of combi boilers installed, the peak demands on gas supplies increases.
Quite right too.
This doesn't sound right. In the 1970s the specification was set by the gas boards engineers. All good engineers overspecify if they want a long lifetime product. The manufacturers tested the product to a supervised gas board standard, knowing that if it failed, they would lose the business. These were the days when products were properly tested for reliability and products were rated on their lifetime cost as much as on the ex works price. So IMM is probably right in saying that a gas meter of his era would perform adequately with a 100% overload. Now that IEC9000 defines the quality standard, the product is extremely likely to be crap when it leaves the production line having been built for the lowest possible cost and may not withstand the 100% overload which IMM wishes to use. I wouldn't even bet that the modern meter would stay working correctly when used at 100% load for a couple of years! Certainly some modern semiconductor electricity meters have a very short lifespan (
Hi IMM,
Hay I didn't mean to offend you.
Yes system boilers are as complex as combis minus the flow restrictor filter, venturi, diverter system, hot water thermister, flow provin switch and plate heat exchanger/small store where fitted, hydrauli connections and added complexity to the pcb, all of which seldom f wrong during the period of manufacturer's guarantee, and dmitedly th mid position valve is no saint, but it's quite a simple device agains that small list. I prefer S plan myself.
Look, don't get me wrong, I fit combis if that's what people want, I' not afraid of them, yes they do carry benefits which some people valu greater than the shortcomings.
Recently I took my unvented certificate, those guys are fairly certai that the way forward is the system boiler and unvented water storage o thermal store.
I am very fortunate to have a 4 story house so I can manage with ope vented hot water and the old 3/4 inch pipes.
My wifes bras actually are what you're most likely to find hung off ou Grundfos pump which is probably as old as the Ideal Mexico.
I'm not against modern trends, I fit condensing boilers primarily now I'd have one at home if my Ideal Mexico became obsolete, which I expec to happen. I now find many regular boilers have a number of obsolet parts.
I love system boilers, saves all that hassle enticing water through th pipes. The added controls of a modern boiler don't scare me, mostly the are reliable and simple to diagnose.
No I recon to be fair, to have a level headed view of all the factor involved in boiler choice, fit combis where appropriate, and when take out the old cylinder I'm glad for the T money I get for it, an the spead with which I can fit the combi.
Combi swaps are a dream.
Bring em on
-- Paul Barker
If one overspecifies, it is on the basis that the product will be used within the specification, not at 1.5 or 2x the specification.
This is a bogus argument. Assuming that the meter manufacturers did overspecify to apparently improve reliability, and the bodgers abused it by using it beyond spec. then that reliability margin would be lost. This then takes the manufacturer back to where he started.
This is a common misconception. ISO9000 defines quality standards in the technical and not the colloquial meaning of the word. In other words, it is documentation of and adherence to a set of processes and procedures. This bears absolutely no relationship to whether the resulting product is any good or not. Moreover, processes can be treated as uncontrolled and then anything can be happening.
no - system seems stable now - 3 old radiators developed leaks, nowhere else so far..... touchwood
They gave themselves a hell of a lot of slack. It could do x2 but we never went to X2. Mdern U6s are built pretty well the same way. There is overload built in. It just doesn't stop measuring or stop providing gas when 212 cu ft/hr is exceeded.
Only on uk.d-i-y. ............and your knowledge of gas metering is???? er, er, er, what you picked up here, by read what I wrote. duh!
Obviously not, but this does not mean that it is good practice to deliberately operate equipment outside the manufacturer's specifications.
Once you go beyond the spec. who defines what the margin is? Did you get written approval from the meter suppliers that exceeding their spec. by 1.5 to 2x was OK? Did they honour the warranty?
Are you sure you weren't fired?
It was within spec. Apparently not now the private sharks are on the money hunt.
Which spec.? Yours? The gas board's? The manufacturer's? Was it written down that this was an officially OK policy?
Apparently not. Good thing really.
Some combi's are very simple with no diverter valves. The W-B Junior and Ferroli Modena come to mind.
Extra complexity on the pcs is invisible to maintenance men. Ask Maxie, he recons them.
That is a change of stance.
They would wouldn't they. 60-70% of all boilers old in the UK are combi's. The flowrate of them is improving by the month. For a one bath, one or two showers, the likes of the Alpha CB50 is brilliant, as one poster confirms. It will even do two baths as long as they are not filled at the same time (the recovery rate of the store is minutes). No tanks, or fitting complexity, power showers and a cupboard liberated in v small British homes. For DIY they are brilliant. Little thinking on the part of the installer. Most DIY jobs I have seen when they tackle cylinders and tanks is cringeful.
Over one bathroom and a shower or two, I would go heat bank./thermal store as the benefits outweight unvented.
BTW, I have a Microgenus in a flat, excellent little combi, and Ariston now give 5 year gurantees on their boilers, and in my house an Ideal condenser off a weather compensator and a Gledhill Systemate thermal store (a class act all in one casing). See below on my response to a plumber on here
Mexico? Get it changed ASAP. You will apprecaite the lower bills.
You will have little choice in a few months.
It is. It came out in 1970, named after the 1970 world cup.
Unless the old boiler had a large balanced flue and you are left with a big hole. Sometimes it takes longer chiselling the old boiler out than fitting the new one.
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Confusing passage but let's see....
The point is that they can explode, and do. If one explodes an insurance company will not pay out if the unvented cylinder was not serviced.
It is for a pensioner. Many local authorities have removed unvented cylinders as they had too much hassle of drips from vent pipes because the air bubbles were never re-instated by the residents, or the pressure vessels failed. They had an army of men attending these problems.
The large metal pipe extracts heat from a house 24/7. For this reason eco houses don't us them. DPS do a heat banmk that doesn't require an overflow, so no penetration of the external building fabric.
Both. If dumb plumbers can't understand a thermal store or heat bank they should work on the milk.
It is not. Solar panels work in winter with clear strong sun. A solar coil in an integrated thermal store supplying DHW & CH will have solar generated heat used for CH and DHW. A solar coil in an unvented cylinder is only available for DHW.
Clearly untrue. A heat bank with DHW and heating sections, with the heating section controller from an outside weather compensator will perform very efficiently with condensing boiler
????
Or wants high flow DHW cheaply as he can do it himself. It is not a matter if he has fad for thermal store technology. A DIYer can't fit an unvented cylinder.
Future owners will not know the difference. All they know is that a heat bank will give them high pressure DHW. Also a heat bank can go up to 10 bar, whereas I know of no unvented cylinder that is above 3.5 bar (they are pressure (reduced).
Ignorance from dumb plumbers. I know of one housing estate that were fitting with Flowmaxes about 12 years ago . Some of the Flowmaxes developed simple faults, such as flow blending valves failing and the likes. The naive owners contacted the local dumb lumbers and said it is best to rip them out and fit a tank in the loft. There are a number of tank now in lofts, when a £30 part would have solved the problem.
I can give you examples of dumb plumbers putting in a rad system when a perfectly adequate forced air system is there. All was required was the unit repairing.
Most plumber are only good for drains and gutters and replacing bathroom suites.
Marketing has promoted an inferior technology that is clear. Also developers fitting them besuse they easy is also promoted them. Heat banks are just as easy. Obviously a cheap was done somwhere. "Megaflows a must have"? Please get real.
A megalflow or thermal store? When a customer sees high pressure mains hot water he is impressed whether Megaflow or heat bank. Heat bank give higher pressures, up to 10 bar.
I have.
So you blinded by a boiler with load compensating control; the "only" type you fit.
And no reason given. Not impressed.
You should be more objective when assessing these matters. You have everything to gain.
Something tells me you want unvented cylinders to be the norm as only BBA registered people can fit them. They are NOT cheap and BBA fitting not cheap either. Your mind is poisoned by vested interest.
were about the only people who boards meters they dictated.
Yep.
You are naive.
Did they do bed and breakfast as well? :-)
I find it very hard to believe that....
Did the manufacturers know? Did the customers?
Yep.
As they never paid for meters, they didn't need to. Only large commercial customers paid for metering, but the gas rates they got were very appealling.
This always starts up a long running thread between dimm and t'others. In fact there is a recent thread which may still be tailing off. A domestic standard supply, governor and meter is rated at 6 cubic metres per hour but dim tells us he has used them on fantastic overloads without ill effect. If you follow the standards and current legal requirements you should limit your total house load to 6m^3. This includes any fires, cookers, boilers etc. If you need more you should ask your supplier for a greater capacity supply and meter.
Nah - theres too much time (unpaid) waiting for Transco to turn up when you ring to advise of low pressure from the meter/governor because of the excessive load.
This one is that bright. Sad but true.
Shouldn't matter. You can overload the supply by at least
50%......:-)
you > >ring to advise of low pressure from the meter/governor because of the
Yep. That's true.
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