More on VW Cheatware

"Volkswagen was reportedly warned about rigging emissions tests on its vehicles years ago, not only by one of its suppliers but also the German car giant's own engineers.

According to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper, VW's technicians flagged up concerns about the engine management software the company was using in its motors back in 2011.

It was also reported today that VW had been cautioned eight years ago not to rig the tests by its software supplier Bosch. According to Bild am Sonntag, Bosch had written to VW in 2007.

The cheatware detects when a motor undergoes emissions testing, and then fudges the engine output to pass the examination by cutting performance to meet emissions standards for nitrogen oxide."

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher
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how is that possible?

Reply to
tabbypurr

One report said that it detected the steering wasn't being used when the car was being "driven" on a rolling road test rig to check emissions.

Reply to
Jeff Layman

Another suggested the rear wheels were stationary during tests. Or perhaps the handbrake was on. Kind of rules out 4WD . . .

Reply to
RJH

I have seen a suggestion that there's a "test" mode that on the surface disables ESP etc for rolling road testing, but I've never seen any evidence of this beyond hearsay. Even if there isn't, if it's a 2WD car, pretty easy to tell if it is on a rolling road via the ABS sensors, and even if 4WD, as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, via the steering angle sensor.

Reply to
Chris Bartram

As others have said by some physical anomally that wouldn't occur in the real world or by the "brain" knowing what the testing profile is. ie stationary at idle for 15 seconds, 1st gear to 10 mph in 4 second

2nd gear to 20 mph over 3 seconds, 3rd to 30 mph in 3 seconds, hold for 30 secs, up to 40 in 5, up to 4th hold for etc ....
Reply to
Dave Liquorice

Nowadays design engineers can use miniature sensors to monitor practically anything on a vehicle. The chips are tiny and are always getting smaller. I should think it's a doddle to rig the system, but what I cannot get my head around is, how on earth did VW ever think it would get away with the scam?

MM

Reply to
MM

Many things are unique about a rolling road, like one set of wheels going round and round the the brake on the other set, then the steering is fixed straight ahead...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

What I could never get a simple answer on though is this. If the management was used in this so called low emission mode all the time, just how much performance would you loose? I am beginning to think that this is probably because no engine ever made could pass the emissions standard on real life conditions of driving no matter what you did. any standard that is not achievable is basically pointless. What should be done is that a range of emissions under the different conditions needs to be given and its up to the purchaser what they decide to buy. and of course its up the regulators to decide on which list they will support with their tax schemes. Brian

Reply to
Brian-Gaff

One assumes that it can detect the gadget being plugged in and also anything attached to the exhaust. Another interesting question. Brian

Reply to
Brian-Gaff

I'd have thought that this kind of mode would be called test mode and used by the manufacturer to check nothing was out of alignment. The fact that it also is used in official testing seems to be a bit of a silly thing to suggest.

No I'm tending toward thinking that the folk designing the test have at best been naive about actually what has to be tested, ie in a real situation. The fact that its nominal test mode kicks in could have been argueed as a diagnostic mode after all. I juust wonder why VW could not get decent spin doctors instead of owning up to deliberate fraud. Brian

Reply to
Brian-Gaff

That second possibility wouldn't work. By the time its noticed that pattern, it's too late to run the engine so that the emissions would be good enough to satisfy the test.

Reply to
Sam Thatch

Trivially simples.

Reply to
Tim Streater

That does depend on the wording of the test requirements. It could be the car conformed to the letter to the law rather than in the spirit of the law.

Reply to
Fredxxx

Yet other well known German cars in the same tests maintained low emissions whilst being driven, though that could be because the engine was laboured less.

Or where you can fit after-market ECUs with a switch for test mode :-)

Reply to
Fredxxx

Yes - I did wonder about this. Bosch (and others) generally supply much of the injection, and I'd guess would also be involved with writing the software. Since they will be supplying much the same to other makers too. So - again a guess - is they are the author of the software involved. So wonder if it was hacked by VW?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

What I would like to know is the difference between the emissions before the tests were brought in and the emissions reported by the dodgy software and the emissions level claimed to be achieved. Are we talking huge differences here ?

Its not that long since we had to listen to the diesel fan boys about how cleamn diesel was compare to petrol

Reply to
fred

Well in terms of hydrocarbon emissions it is..

Just not NOx:-)

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

"Bosch, the German engineering firm, is said to have explained in a memo to VW that use of the software to manipulate results would be against the law.

A 2007 letter warned against using the software during regular operation, according to an internal VW investigation seen by German weekly Bild am Sonntag.

Bosch is understood to have delivered the software to Volkswagen on the basis that it was test purposes and not for normal driving mode."

Chris

Reply to
Chris J Dixon

Yes - I've read reports of it being 40x as much.

It was always bollox - except for CO2. A petrol engine with a cat. in good tune actually cleans up urban air in therms of vehicle emissions. Except obviously for CO2.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

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