Missing Prat P certificates and how to get them.

[Ian_m]

A mate has had a kitchen fitted about 6 months ago that involved major electrical work, new cooker feed, adding a new ring main just for kicthen and electical underfloor heating. All is now complete'ish, new ceiling up, walls replastered, and tiled, painting done, floor tiled etc.

However speaking to him the other day he realised he has absolutely nothing in terms of paperwork to do with the electrical testing/Part P. Went back the fitting company who said the fitter they employed was Part P self certifying and should have given him the paperwork of what he did, but as they have parted company with this fitter my mate should therefore get the electrics certified/tested and the fitting company will pay. No problem he thought.

A quick phone call to a couple of electricians reveals a problem, none of them are interested as they did not fit the electrical installation so therefore cannot sign it off as they can no longer physically inspect it.!!!!!

I suspect my mate is asking for the wrong thing, what should he be asking electricians for ?

Should be asking the local building control for "completion certificate"

The fitting company is not much help as they only employ self certifying fitters and don't have a clue what paperwork should be issued.

[John Rumm]

They are right, there is no provision in part P for anyone other than the original installer to be able to self certify it. A third party can not come along later and issue one for him.

Nothing, he would need to contact the original electrician.

Was this work being done under a building notice? If not then no.

About par for the course. If building control are not involved then he may as well go without.

[TheScullster]

"Ian_m" wrote

So has he paid the full amount to the kitchen supply company?

If the electrician was appointed by (and effectively under the control of) the kitchen company , i. e. nothing to do with your mate, then it should be the kitchen company's responsibility to provide an install that meets current regs! This obviously includes the provision of appropriate paperwork.

I recently had a major heating upgrade which included all new electrics, controls etc. My agreement was with the plumbing company who sub'd the work out to a local lekky. It was the plumbing company I approached to get the Part P certification - but I had'nt paid the bill at that point! AIUI the plumbing company (in my case) and the kitchen company (in your mate's case) are adopting the role of "main contractor" and as such become liable for the project as a whole. Although they will conveniently (for them) try to distance themselves from their own appointed subbies as and when it suits.

Phil

[tom.harrigan]

I would just forget about it. I've never seen a Part P certificate. Mother-in-law's new bathroom was fitted by an electrician who lied about being part P. Neighbors house was renovated and signed off by building control despite no electrical certificate. Another neighbor's new house wasn't given an electrical certificate, but also signed off by BC.

You could do a building notice, then call in the inspector when the work is "done".

T

[Ed Sirett]

This is just another example of how badly thought out this law was. what happens if someone becomes seriously ill or worse at the end of an installation?

Unless you need the paperwork to sell the house I'd just forget it. If you do then you'll have to get a Periodic from an electrician.

[Hugo Nebula]

On 30 May 2007 09:14:28 -0700, a particular chimpanzee, [e-mail] randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

NAPIT does allow testing of third party installations. From their website, the FAQ for their members says this:

"Can I notify a job if I carry out the electrical inspection & testing?

(Approved Document P) Clause 1.22 allows an unregistered installer to submit the BS7671 installation certificate and says that the building control body will take this into account. If an appropriately qualified NAPIT members has carried out third party electrical inspection and testing for such an unregistered installer then they can complete the BS7671 installation certificate providing they follow the advice given in the question & answer above and only sign off the inspect and test element. The member cannot notify the job in this case".

[Stephen Dawson]

All the inspection bodies allow for the test and inspection of installations. I can do this and sign the inspect and test part of the cert, BUT, I cannot still notify it, because I would not have carried out the installation. So basically he has an issue with the contractor that needs resolving if he sells the property.

[Owain]

I think this confuses testing to BS7671, and Part Pee compliance.

Owain

[tom.harrigan]

It's easy to get confused though isn't it? You get conflicting opinions as to what PartP means wherever you ask. I have even had an electrical wholesaler refuse to sell me stuff because I'm not PartP registered. (How could I be, I'm not an electrician). They had the NICEIC in the day before who told them it was illegal to sell stuff to unregistered electricians. They have subsequently sold me stuff.

I think I agree with what you seem to be suggesting:

Part P - Building Control requirements relaxed. (certificates included) BS7671 Certificate - Inform BC before work commences, then either they inspect or accept a certificate. Competence: Part P - Member of scheme. BS7671 - C+G 2391 ?????

I'm not entirely sure as to the competency required to issue a BS7671 certificate. I know one person who installed a grid connected wind turbine in his garden. He provided a BS7671 certificate, which he filled in himself (incorrectly), which was acceptable to Building Control. It seemed to me that so long as they could prove that it was someone else's responsibility, they were happy.

T

[Ian_m]

He has contacted the original fitter (kept his mobile) who was employed by the kitchen company, but the two of them are no longer on speaking terms. The fitter wants nothing to do with it anymore. Fiiter says he submitted the relevant test and signed off paperwork to the kitchen company. He says he must have or else he would not have been paid for the job.

The fitter apparently was sacked due to "anomolous billing of jobs", rather than quality of his work.

Anyway my mate is no further forward...The list of deliverables for his kitchen does state Part P compliance.

[Ian_m]

How do you perform an inspection if wires are now behind plasterboard, tiles etc ? I did see it when work was in progress and all the socket feeds were vertically fed, though I am sure the new cooker feed stretched the word "vertical" as I suspect the cooker isolating socket was moved after the ceiling had been refitted.

[tom.harrigan]

That's a fair point. However, we are talking about a piece of paper here, whose sole purpose is to get the authorities off our back! In all inspection assumptions are made, and only a percentage of an installation is checked. If standard practice has been obviously followed, then you might be in luck.

T

[John Rumm]

Since his only contract is with them, then they are the ones he will have to play hardball with then. (especially if he has not paid the bill yet)

[Ian_m]

Anyway speaking to local BCO they say he can get an inspection and test certificate, pay council £80 and they will issue a regulations completion certificate (or something like that) and he can sleep more easily, earn millions and live for ever........You can tell my mate is losing interest very quickly.....

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember [e-mail] saying something like:

Obviously wishful thinking on the part of the NICEIC, showing what they would like to happen sometime in the next few years. Iirc, there are similar restrictions on the sale of electrical, HVAC, and plumbing items in some US states.

Be afraid, be very afraid - because sometime the Greedy Bastards will attempt to restrict the freedoms of all DIYers to carry out anything remotely technical on spurious 'safety' grounds.

[Tony Bryer]

"Spare parts supplier, Parts Center has announced that from January next year it will no longer sell ?gas-carrying parts? to customers who are not registered with CORGI.

The move is viewed by CORGI as a breakthrough in its ongoing campaign to persuade manufacturers and merchants to make it more difficult for illegal gas workers to operate. Parts Center will be the first national product distributor to adopt such a policy."

[Andy Hall]

Become CORGI registered and a reseller of parts.

Second market opportunity.

Other parts distributors picking up the market share from Parts Center

I suspect that the reality is that few parts of this type are sold by Parts Center to non registered customers anyway and they've decided that they might as well have the press coverage.

[Tony Bryer]

You and I would turn up at the counter knowing what we want, buy it, and that would be the end of it. But, as you say, what we spend is not worth worrying about as compared to their overall sales.

I would not be totally surprised if they didn't have a fair number of people who wanted lots of free advice, didn't know what they were doing, then brought the bits back for a refund. All the time trade customers waiting behind them getting increasingly fed up. Losing these people is a bonus to them and their trade customers.

[Andrew Gabriel]

improvising now. That's sure to improve gas safety...

I have found Parts Center's lack of stock makes them less than useful in any case.

[Owain]

Yes, an image of garden hose and jubilee clips floated into my mind.

The mis-spelling of the company name is good enough ground to avoid them IMHO.

Owain