Loft conversion

[Phil L]

I'm not nitpicking here, but these regulations state that no 2 storey dwelling can be built unless it has a fire door seperating floors: a. The upper storeys (those above ground storey) should be served by a protected stairway which should either:

i. extend to a final exit, see Diagram 3(a), or

ii. give access to at least two escape routes at ground level, each delivering to final exits and separated from each other by fire-resisting construction and self-closing fire doors, see Diagram 3(b).

b. The top storey should be separated from the lower storeys by fire-resisting construction and be provided with an alternative escape route leading to its own final exit.

'protected stairway'?

They are building open plan houses 200 yards away from where I'm sitting right now...also this bit above 'b. The top storey' is referring to a two storey house, IE a normal house.

All this is academic anyway, no one can force you, or the seller to bring a dwelling up to *todays* standards - I know of lots of Victorian houses which are four and five storeys high and none of them have fire escapes, fire doors or anything else - these rules cover the erection of new buildings only

[John Rumm]

often, yes.

If it is just one room, then I can't why not. Note however that some estate agents refrain from referring to a room that only has a vaulted ceiling as a bedroom.

The time things like this become an issue is when you have taken advantage of some of the relaxations of the other building regs that are permitted for a loft conversion (like those regarding "space saver" stairs etc). As the number of habitable rooms increases these relaxations are withdrawn.

[Sven]

Snipp

Where as I agree totally with what you say Phil, I think they consider any alterations a licence to kick you in the nadds. My argument is simple, especially with the escape from the first floor thing, if the conversion has not been done, how would that make the fire escape from the first floor any less of a problem. To make the changes I will need to either construct a corridor what will bugger up the entire kitchen and serve very little purpose, or hack a new door into the living room and modify the stairs.

I agree the regs make sense for a new home but not an existing structure. Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in the regulations when dealing with a house that has stood very happily for the last 100+ years?

[Owain]

It is required for *three storey* properties. Most houses are two storey.

Nothing to do with planning permission; it's building regulations.

The risk of death from fire is significantly greater in properties >2 storeys, hence the regulations.

Owain

[Owain]

Then the company that did the work are neither of good repute nor professional.

Then it's not suitable for loft conversion and shouldn't have been done. Spiral stairs aren't usually a sign of a good conversion anyway - and have you checked that you can get furniture up and a coffin down? (You might need to get a coffin down after a fire-related fatality.)

It's not listed or conservation area is it?

AIUI you can't escape "in" a lounge any more than you can for a kitchen, in a 3-storey.

I can think of a few possibilities, depending on the liklihood of getting an extension approved (and whether there is space, budget etc).

1. Corridor the kitchen, and extend to create a new kitchen.
2. Remove the staircase and return the loft to non-habitable space. Extend at ground floor level to create additional space.
3. Extend at ground and first floor levels, connectign with the existing first floor corridor and continuing to a new final exit staircase in the extension. You'd still need a fire door at the bottom of the old stair into the kitchen, fire alarm etc.
4. If you were intending to use one of the rooms as a home office, games room, etc. Remove the staircase and return the loft to non-habitable space. Erect a timber lodge in the garden. You can get these built to caravan BS rather than building regulations. They therefore count as a temporary structure and, providing they do not offer and are not used as self-contained accommodation (eg having own kitchen and bathroom) might not need planning permission.

However I would urge you to get the sellers to get retrospective PP and BR approval at their expense and inconvenience, unless you are prepared to forfeit the loft room as habitable.

Owain

[John Rumm]

You need to be a little careful with your terminology here - I expect they are looking to get retrospective building regs approval (or "regularisation" as it is called) rather than PP

OK, that makes far more sense ;-)

So there is an exit to the garden from the kitchen, but what about from the lounge? Front door? or is that on the kitchen?

That sounds like the only major problem really - there is noting to keep smoke out of the top bedroom.

OK, hence no need for planning permission then...

Good - it does not take much to achieve the required level.

[Sven]

Sorry John yes my mistake I did mean regs not pp.

Thanks for all the help, if it is just the problem with the stairs into the attic space I can deal with that as it does not evolve messing with the original parts of the house. I can create a landing area and fit a FD, add in a few self closers and jobs done.

Lets hope the seller sees that too and gets it done for me ;-), either way not as big a problem I thought it might be.

Thanks again

Steve

[Sven]

Extension at ground floor level is not an option.

Owa>> Ok big subject I know. I am looking at purchasing a property that has

[Owain]

And a loft conversion (the creation of new habitable space) is classed as new building, and has to be to current regs.

Owain

[Owain]

Because with a loft conversion the first floor has to act as the escape from the 2nd floor also.

Yes, leave the house as it has stood very happily for the last 100+ years.

But start creating rooms in a roof that was only ever intended to hold a lath and plaster ceiling up and you have to comply with today's regs.

Owain

[Chris Bacon]

Sounds OK then.... you might find out what such insurance might cost; if you're really keen it might be useful knowledge....

[Hugo Nebula]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:56:37 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Sven randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

From what you say it doesn't comply. If the work has been carried out more than 12 months previously then the Council can't take enforcement action for a breach of the Regulations. There is a theoretical risk that action could be taken for a dangerous building, but the chances of this happening on a private dwelling is very rare. This is what the 'indemnity' policy is meant to cover, and the way they are worded means that even with this rare occurrence there is an infinitesimal chance of them ever having to pay out.

To clarify the requirements:

1. The new second floor must be separated from the rest of the house by 30 minutes fire resisting construction, and a 20 minute fire resisting door;
2. The stair must be enclosed from the entrance to the second floor to the ground in 30 minutes fire resisting construction. The existing doors at first and ground floors can be retained, but must be fitted with self closing devices (except bathroom & WCs). Any glass in these doors or fanlights must be fire resisting;
3. The stair must discharge either:- a) directly to the outside (via a hall) or b) have a choice of two separate routes (i.e., one route through a lounge with another through the back kitchen) provided that the routes are separated by fire resisting construction;
4. The loft must have an alternative escape window or rooflight no more than 1.7m from the eaves where a ladder can be placed against them.

[Hugo Nebula]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 19:48:07 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Sven randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Are the stairs enclosed or separated from the kitchen? Is it possible to create a door from the bottom of the stair into the living room? If yes to both then it could be made to comply (at the base of the stair at least).

If you could enclose the spiral stair either at the first floor or the second floor then this would comply.

[PeTe33]

I may be completely naive about building regs etc, but why shouldn't the sale be allowed to proceed without Building regs compliance?

If the purchaser knows the facts and is not being mis-guided then what's the score.

Surely you can sell your property to whoever you choose in whatever state you choose if the purchaser is happy to purchase?

[Peter Parry]

It wouldn't - it makes escape from the second floor more of a problem. The risk has been increased by the modification, not by the change of regulations.

Fires usually start in kitchens. It is most unlikely that you will get BR approval for any layout where the final exit is only through the kitchen or through a room not protected from the kitchen.

Later regulations wouldn't have affected the existing structure - an apparently badly implemented alteration has.

Little or none when you are talking about a recent alteration which seems to have been done in contravention of the rules which existed at the time it was completed. Ensuring modifications do not compromise the ability of people to escape from a building is considered seriously.

Do also bear in mind that you might also be buying something which is essentially uninsurable.

[John Rumm]

I expect that is true, although you would probably have to explicitly instruct your solicitors of that intention so they don't go off on a red tape hunting exercise. ;-)

[John Rumm]

What he said!

Note to the OP, just in case you did not realise: Hugo was a BCO in former life!

[Hugo Nebula]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:54:20 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named John Rumm randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Still am.

[Chris Bacon]

I have referred to "BCOs" as "bloody pen pushers" in the past. That's as may be. I shall be interested to hear your opinion on whether "we" are over-regulated, under-regulated, or whether the regulations that we often have to comply with are "about right". N.B. I'm asking for an opinion, and possibly some examples, not for a falme war.

[Hugo Nebula]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:22:54 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Chris Bacon randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

When you see on a daily basis the poor quality and dangerous building work going on (usually unauthorised), you may not think we're over-regulated in terms of the basic function of Building Control, which is to ensure the health, safety and welfare of people in and around buildings.

In the last few years there have been more regulations implemented that are little to do with the 'traditional' role of the BCO; domestic electrics, disabled access statements and the colour of door handles, checking the minutiae of air conditioning plant, etc. This, and the chronic shortage of BCOs, means that we have less time to spend on the basics. Many BCOs fear that the job will just become one of collecting certificates.