A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out...
is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..
Jim
I recall reading in an article that condensing boilers often do not last very long if fitted to existing systems - something to do with steel radiators I think. The article suggested that they are much more successful in new systems, appropriately specified.
I'm sticking with my old dinosaur of a boiler. It works fine and it's cheap and simple to fix!
Rick
For early ones he probably is but they've got a lot better. Laws of customer satisfaction and all that. In any case you don't replace the whole boiler, just some of the bits which are usually available as a kit.
I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect.
The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)
Even at 10 years, I doubt the replacement cost swamps the savings. Anyway, savings is not the only reason to use a condensing boiler. I bought one, for the same reason I buy other energy saving appliances. It was more than paid for by the money I saved getting my windows replaced just before Part L came into force (which was a big waste of money -- just about any other way you could spend the extra money on energy efficiency other than on K glass is much more effective in an older house).
Whilst at a metal scrap yard recentley a local heating company were dumping a load of boilers and the majority were condensing type,they did not look as though they were that old.the engineer told me that they have to replace condensing boilers more freqentley that the old standard ones due to high corrosion.
Well if you want heating boiler insurance, Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5 years for condensers. Does that suggest something !
No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant.
It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to rust.
In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation.
Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on designs originating from these countries or even originate from them to a greater or lesser extent. Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used and condensate is handled correctly.
The complexity is now not significantly different to the more sophisticated conventional boilers.
Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few months as new legislation applies from next April.
.andy
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Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found accountancy too exciting.
It is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current information.
Generally insurance policies on boilers and heating systems are a waste of money anyway. If you looks at BG's £150 deal you can have paid for a new boiler in 5 years anyway, and they have so many get outs that the policy is practically worthless in the first place.
.andy
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It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant. You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay outputs and stuff. You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original plugs, and your generic board.
This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for spares.
The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the pump, that's hardwired. Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct boiler.
Who is going to go to the effort of working out the programming though? Without the manufacturer's original design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it, except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval for something like that.
If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf solutions from a small number of companies specialising in this area, then this might just happen.
For example, does Keston use the control boards for their C25 in the larger model boilers? Does anyone else use the same control boards? (Keston doesn't appear to make them themselves, but I don't know how generic a part they are.) There are two sizable boards stuffed full of micro-electronics in these units. They operate in the heat inside the boiler casing, and they are under one end of the heat exchanger where they could get wet if it leaked (there's a plastic shroud, but I would not bet it would save them). I notice the C25 does seem to have what looks like an unused additional input for a lockout cause which isn't connected to anything on the C25. Maybe something used by a different range, or just protecting themselves in case they find they have to add air flow or water flow switch or something silimar in a product rev.
My Oil condensing boiler is in it's 10 year and is regularly maintained. The maintenance Engineer says that my boiler will last another 10 years. the check figures shows a 90% efficiency still. It was made by a British Firm and has paid for itself in 7 years. Blair
Seems as if one should get a spare board when you buy a new boiler - until the wasteful practice of obsolesce by design is outlawed.
James
Great in theory, but it just doesn't happen. The closest to a "generic" board anyone seems to have got is the Honeywell sequence boards which fit directly onto gas valves, but even then none of them are quite the same and there is the rival Italian company SIT who are in competition
You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design.
While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of unifying at all or having any intention of doing so
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In message , Andrew Gabriel writes
No way ...
They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler manufacturers would hold the copyright on
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There is/has been an "open standard" via a manufacturer consortium in Holland to attempt to produce a common control interface between room and water themostats and controls and single or multiple boilers, basically to provide something better than coarse on/off control via PWM.
I can't find the link for the moment, but a few of the well known manufacturers had joined it. IIRC though, little had changed on the site since about 2000 so it has probably gone the way of most manufacturer consortia...........
.andy
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Do you think that there is a way to outlaw this?
How would it ever be proved or enforced?
AIUI, appliance manufacturers already have to guarantee 10 year spares availability to get a Gas Councilo number.
What does one do? Increase to 15 years? 20? 50?
You can design electronics to have long lifetimes and low failure rates. You can use military grade components and subsystems at
10-100 times the commercial price (at least).One could legislate certain requirements into ISO 900x quality manuals to document engineering and manufacturing procedures.
The question is, would consumers pay? Very doubtful.
Would there be a way for manufacturers to weasel out of the legislation? Almost certainly.
As in almost all cases where legislation is applied to commercial practices and the free market, such an idea would be doomed to failure.
.andy
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If you think about it, this would prevent any improvements being made to anything.
There's quite a thriving market in reconditioned boards, especially for popular washing machines.
Usually the microprocessors last forever - it's the thrystors or triacs driving the load that go pop. Of course STM obsolete these on a regular basis (personal gripe) but one can usually find a newer higher rated part that will fit.
I have a spare board for my boiler.
I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board.
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