Legionella in vented system?

[Jim Alexander]

best not get in a taxi then

Jim A

[Merryterry]

Ah, so you would buy the cheapies because you are paranoid about being ripped off. Now I dont mind you being a tightarsed idiot. Kill yourself if you like but, if you were fitting the cheapies on some innocent persons car (and charging them the price of the rated tyre) you would be being f..g irresponsible?

I do act as an agent for a responsible company who ceased to purchase imported, unapproved Flexihoses when presented with the evidence. Neither the company or I wish to sell a product that is not fit for purpose or has the potential to harm anyone. The British Bathroom Manufacturers Association and the Thermostatic Valve Manufacturers Association have taken the same stand. Perhaps we should all say 'bollocks', if the public want to put themselves at risk, let em?

Independantly funded by Liverpool University Hospital when unexplained Legionella was found in several Hospitals water systems, Worcester Royal being the most extreme example. Incidently, some of the hoses tested had floor sweepings in the EPDM rubber, (bits of wood etc).

[Aidan]

The thread in which you originally got 'flamed' was this one;

just re-read it.

I think I may have done myself an injury laughing so much.

You got flamed, not because of the views expressed about legionella, but because you're a scare-mongering, spamming, troll misrepresenting a piece of research for your own financial benefit.

Now look, you've thrown all your toys out of the pram and used some naughty words. You might recall writing in the earlier thread; "One consolation is that when the other party starts to use personal insults he has lost the argument."

You've lost then.

First, you're misrepresenting the facts.

A rogue flexible hose would not, on it's own, cause a legionella problem. The bacteria needs nutrients, favourable temperatures and time to multiply to dangerous levels. The hose would only supply the first of these. You might find the problem was anerobic bacteria, detected on incubated media, persisting after biocidal or heat sterlisation of the system. This has been a known problem for some years, mainly with regard to limescale debris in the bottom (coolest part) of DHWS storage calorifiers. If there had been a problem with hazardous levels of bacteria, it would suggest that there had been some other problems in the control regime.

You may get favourable temperatures in the outlet of a TMV, which hospitals are required to use in areas where there are vulnerable patients.

You're also misrepresenting the solution. The solution is not to ensure you buy the ACME flexible hose from the MerryTerry Hose Company.

You may also recall in the earleir thread you wrote;

"I wonder why all the flexible hoses were recently removed from Worcester Royal Infirmary at great cost and have been banned in PFI Hospitals built by a certain PFI consortium? I wonder why all the flexible hoses were removed from the University of Essex Student Accommodation Block in Colchester? Perhaps they enjoyed pulling them out and replacing them? There are others."

And there is the solution; do not buy better flexible hoses, but buy NO flexible hoses.

Why are they needed? The only place flexible connectors should be used is on rotating machinery, on pipe expansion bellows and on building settlement joints. On taps, they are a labour saving device for crap plumbers who can't operate a pipe-bender with sufficient skill to get a tap connection within 3mm of the pipe tail installed by the mechanical sub-contractor. They weren't used 10 years ago.

The solution is to employ a competent plumber, or connect the taps with PEX or table Y soft annealed copper tube, insulate the final connection and have NO flexible hoses on the domestic water services.

So the recommendation is to use no flexible hoses on your water services, they are hazardous.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Now, far cough.

[Aidan]

I think I just need to emphasise that a bit more than I did.

Please note that they did not remove and replace the flexible hoses. They removed them, they binned them and they banned them. That's the way to do it.

[Merryterry]

I am not misrepresenting anything. I have copies of microphotographs of biofilms/legionella & gallionella on the inside of non-approved hoses. Unfortunatley I am not allowed to publish them in digital form due on the insistance of Dr Makin. If you would care to email me your address I will send you hard copies.

Agreed. Roughly surfaced, impure, extruded EPDM has all these attributes. The deep pitting shown in the photos show areas that disinfection has not reached. Biofilms are trapped on the rough surface. The photos show LP bacteria in these pits and sitting on the biofilms.The bacteria has plenty of time to multiply in these unreachable pits.

The problem was anerobic bacteria found on the actual hoses not an incubated media.

Agreed. But using an Flexihose that has been proven not to support Legionella overcomes this risk. Thats why the TMVA have taken their stand on the issue.

I have never said that you should buy flexihoses from my source. I have always said you should buy approved hoses (as per the water regulations). I have been careful never to name the company I represent. There are other manufacturers of approved hoses.

I said that about copper tube, compression joints and solder ring fittings when I learned to wipe solder joints on lead pipe using a solder pot. Things move on. There are plumbers out there that cannot even bend two offsetts in copper tube to the same dimension.

Watch this space

Not approved ones. They have been tested and proven not to support biofilms/harmful bacteria

See:

Before commenting further please.

[Aidan]

On Dec 13, 9:34 am, "Merryterry" wrote: Roughly surfaced, impure, extruded EPDM has all these

It survives in those pits because the hose is not reaching the temperature required to kill legionella. That is the problem.

The problem is not the fact that there are pits; there will be unavoidable bacteria hidey-holes at many places in a new system, many more in an older installation. The entire system has to be heated to pasteurise the bugs, but the hoses are, for some reason, exempted from the effort at pasteurising the entire system with the temperature control regime.

The answer is to insulate up to the taps, and get rid of the flexi hoses Why do taps need flexible connections? The sinks don't/shouldn't move around.

The problem would have been first detected by cultivating samples from the water system after sterilisation. Any bugs would indicate that the sterlisation hasn't worked. The bacteria thriving in the hoses would have been found as a result of the investigation of that problem.

It would certainly provide a less bug friendly environment, but the problem is that the hoses are not thermally insulated and don't get sterilised by the hot water. If insulated, the entire pipe/hose would approach the temperature of the water and the bacteria would be killed.

Then they're not competent. The hoses are a labour/skill/cost saving device. The changes are being driven by cost savings and not all cost saving changes are improvements. This is one cost shaving measure that has had some very bad effects; the remedy is to change back.

Is there a problem with PEX?

proven not to support

Read it, some months ago.

You haven't mentioned the PFI or the Roayal Worcestershire Infirmary (hasn't it closed?).

When they removed the flexible hoses, did they replace them (as your posts suggest) or did they ban them? If the former, then you have misrepresented the situation for your own benefit. I'll probably find out eventually.

I have copies of microphotographs of

I don't doubt that the hoses are as you describe.

[Merryterry]

The areas surrounding the 'hidy-holes' you mention do not contain nutrients that encourage biofilms. Sub-standard EPDM extrusions do.

Not at all. What about a PEX type flexihose?

Not when I drove past it today.

consortium concerned replaced them with plumbed in copper tube and have banned any further uses of any flexihoses. Your apology awaited

>

[Aidan]

'Former' should have read 'latter', they banned them. My mistake there.

They banned all flexihoses but you didn't mention that in the original post in the first thread (see above for link) because you sell WRAS approved flexihoses.

What you wrote was;

"A hospital in the West Midlands and Student Accommodation in East Anglia have had all the non WRAS approved Flexible Hoses removed due to

health risk."

So you misrepresented that. They didn't remove 'all the non-WRAS hoses'; they removed all flexihoses and banned any future use of any flexihoses.

It is you that should apologise to the group. You are a scheming, devious, spamming little sales troll. Do please clear off.

[Merryterry]

No sorry? Plonker. Further down you criticise me for misusing words. Typical hypocrite

The hoses were all non-WRAS approved and they removed them. You should have been a politician with your grasp of semantics.

If you consider warning people of the proven health risks of certain plumbing fittings without advertising what I sell to be 'spamming' you need to look up the meaning in a dictionary. You are a nit picker with an overblown ego who doesnt give a shit whose granny or grandad is harmed as long as you can air your ego. Apologise I will not.