My property was built in 2004. The bathroom cistern is dribbling slightly into the bowl. That is, you flush the bowl, then if you watch the surface in the bowl after the water has settled you can observe a continual slight dribble that lasts indefinitely.
The mechanism looks like the most complicated device I've ever seen! Look here:
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is this contraption? Can anyone identify the make? I've had a quick look in Focus DIY, but none of the replacements are similar.
On the round plastic body there is the wording "To Access Seal --->" implying that the top part can be twisted and separated from the base and a seal replaced.
I do have an inline shut-off in the inflow pipe, so it's easy to isolate the cistern for repairs. To check how much water is being lost I turned the valve off and marked the water level with a pencil line at 13:55 this afternoon. The level is now about 2cm lower after about one hour. That's a LOT of wastage!
so it had to be 'improved'. Next version will prolly have three relays and a bloody warning light...
Might find a makers name if you remove it.
Does it eventually stop?
Not seem that particular make before, but its highly likely that its the internal overflow operating rather than the siphon leaking.
Try adjusting the ball valve (top right of picky) so that the water level is say 3cm lower & that should sort it. If not try 4cm.
If the seal does need replacing, the top part does indeed twist on a bayonet type fitting. No idea where you would get a seal unless you can find a makers name somewhere.
Thanks, Dave. No, it doesn't eventually stop. I left the inline valve off while I was away over Christmas and the cistern had emptied completely by the time I returned on 27th.
========================================= Almost certainly 'Ideal Standard'. Twist the top part anti clockwise (look for the flimsy little bits adjacent to your pointer) and it will come away. You should find the maker's name (Amstd fastpart - barely legible) on the the inner side just below the maximum water level indicator).
Almost certainly 2". Last one I came across I ended up buying a couple[1] of multikwiks from BES (p/n 19000) and fitting one of those
You'll need a new doughnut washer as well, but I don't know where to get 2" ones - I ended up adding a ring of plumbers mait to the existing donut to make sure it re-sealed (which it didn't - gotta go back there sometime to fix :-()
[1] and keeping the other as a spare for the next time I have to deal with a barsteward drop valve, which won't be long, I'm sure.
========================================= If I've identified correctly (see my earlier reply) no major dismantling is necessary as the top part is removed without needing access to the bottom of the lower part. The seal is then replaced simply by pulling off the worn seal before easing the new seal over its retaining lip.
It's actually quite a good design as replacing the seal should take no more than 5 minutes once the water has been turned off.
Cheers for that, and thanks to everybody for your replies.
I take it that I can twist off the top part whilst the gubbins is in situ? (Maybe I'll have to remove the ball valve arm to allow the top part to twist.) I'll have a closer look tomorrow with a light and a mirror, to see whether I can see the maker's name.
========================================= You only need to turn the top part by about 5 degrees (no great force needed) so the float arm shouldn't be in the way. The lower part of the assembly stays in place.
I've removed the top part. See revised pics (scroll down) at
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the black seal appears pristine!
The syphon is indeed marked "AMSTD FASTPART" on the side.
Is this seal available on the internet? I checked on the Fastpart site and could only see repair kits. I only need this one seal. When you said it might be available at B&Q, did you mean just the seal or the whole syphon unit?
========================================== I believe that I saw this model at B&Q whilst looking for something else but can't be absolutely sure. Since B&Q are a bit erratic on spares I wouldn't rely on them having the washer even if they have the complete item. I don't know about Internet availability as I haven't needed needed one. However, since you say the washer appears to be in good condition (and it is quite a substantial item) I would say that the most likely cause of your problem is simply that the water level is too high (as suggested by MwHM). Transfer the maximum water level mark from the rear of the assembly to the front and adjust the water level via the float in the normal way.
The washer on my unused item looks completely flat but I guess it could turn up at the outer edge after long use so it would be worth checking how flat yours is before you re-assemble and check the water level as suggested above.
Is the seal fairly soft and plyable to mould to the bottom of the cistern, still smooth with no indents from gunk on the cistern? If it really is in good condition I think I'd remove it from the siphon check that the seat and it are clean and smooth, rotate it a bit, refit and do the same for the cistern. When refiting to the cistern does it feel as if the seal is being compressed?
Except that the OP has stated that the cisterm will completely empty if left with the supply isolated for a day or two. Water level to high causing an overflow wouldn't do that.
Dunno. Since I took the unit out to photograph I've removed the seal and given it a good wash. (I looked in Focus and Homebase, plus a couple of local hardware (mom & pop type) stores, but no dice.)
Seems so. It's only approximately four years old after all! I've got exactly the same unit in the downstairs loo and that one is NOT dribbling. (Downstairs has had a lot less use, though.)
Well, there are ~some~ very faint marks when one looks really closely, but you have to wipe it really clean and hold it under the light to see.
On the latter point, yes, it does feel like it's being compressed. I'll try what you suggest re rotating.
I agree with that latter point since the water level drops right down if the inflow valve is closed.
I sent an email to FastPart this morning, asking them whether the seal is available separately, but I haven't heard back yet. Probably shut until Monday. There MUST surely be a replacement seal available, otherwise what's the point of making the top part quick-release to gain access?
========================================= I missed your original statement (until reminded by DL) about the cistern draining fully when the water is turned off. In the light of this I think you're looking at the wrong place for the fault. The fault is probably a defective sealing washer at the base of the siphon unit where it fits through the hole in the cistern. This is a thin (about 2 / 3mm) plain rubber washer about 2.25" inner diameter and a seating diameter of 3.25".
In view of the volume of water being lost you may be able to feel some wetness at the base of the cistern where it joins the pan as the rubber doughnut might have absorbed some of the leakage.
Of course it's still possible that the water level is too high but that's a separate issue which can be sorted when you've confirmed the point of leakage.
You beat me to it - I was going to suggest the same thing.
I think the OP needs to re-assemble the syphon and then remove the cistern from the pan, support it in some suitable way, and part fill it with water. It should then be possible to see whether water is coming out from *inside* the outlet tube (leaking syphon seal) or *outside* it (leaking syphon/cistern point). I suspect the latter.
I should be able to test this by blocking off the large hole (e.g. by manually pressing the "plunger" part from the syphon with the black seal on the end tightly against its seating), then pouring enough water in to cover the boss. If this IS the problem, is that
I now know it's deffo the seal on the syphon plunger. This is what I did. I took the seal on its own and placed it over the conical seating on the plastic boss inside the cistern. There is a 1" dia hole in the centre of the seal, so I took a tin of shaving gel, covered the hole with it, pushing down on the seal to completely seal off the outlet to the bowl. Then, with the other free hand, I carefully poured water from a milk carton into the cistern ONLY UP TO JUST ABOVE THE SEAL and watched for dribbling. No dribbles! Then I relaxed pressure slightly. Dribbles!
Now when I said the other day that the cistern completely drains if left for a day or two with the inflow valve off, on closer inspection this is not true. On my return after Christmas I glanced into the cistern (I'd left the top cover off) and it appeared empty. But actually, the plastic boss containing the conical seat on which the rubber seal makes contact when the plunger is dropped down is slightly higher than the bottom surface of the cistern. I'd say about 5mm higher. And there is about 5mm of water residual in the cistern after it has drained. Probably, when I was away for four days the residual water had almost dried out due to evaporation, so to all intents and purposes the cistern appeared to have emptied.
Anyway, I just had a brainwave (in the last couple of hours). I swapped the top part from the downstairs loo with the bathroom one. No dribbling!!! I've switched the water back on again and flushed a couple of times. Still no dribbling!!! So it is definitely the rubber seal on the end of the plunger thingy.
However, on inspecting the downstairs unit, having put the top part from the bathroom in it, that one doesn't appear to be dribbling EITHER! So whether it's just that the one seal got too used to its seating and now with a different seating it's okay, I don't know. Anyway, I'll watch both cisterns to see if the levels drop over the weekend, then resume my search for seals on Monday, maybe popping over to B&Q if I get no reply from FastPart.
PS to my last post: The seal on the top part from the downstairs loo has some blue gunk on the contact surface, which I left in place. Anyone know what this blue gunk is? It must have been smeared on when the unit was being assembled when the house was built in 2004. Whatever it is, it has mostly stayed in place despite numerous flushings over four years. NB: This gunk is definitely man-made, i.e. not some chemical reaction. It definitely looks as if the plumber smeared some "stuff" on the seal before assembling the syphon inside the cistern.
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