Lead-Loc and Gas pipes

[tom w]

Hi

I'm in the process of removing a gas fire in our dining room in order to reinstate the open fire that was there previously. I've removed one already in the lounge, which was easy enough as the gas supply was copper pipe under the floorboards and a compression stop-end did the job easily. In the dining room, the job is complicated by the fact that the gas supply is through lead pipe. I want to cut this off, but access is tricky, and certainly wouldn't allow me to do the 'bash it flat, fold over the end and bash it flat again' approach. I've gathered from past posts that a lead-loc adaptor is what I need, but I'm having trouble finding one to fit. The lead pipe is marked as

1/2" 2lb, and I've not seen any lead-loc fittings for pipes below 1/2" 6lb. Does anyone know if I can I use one of these, or do I need to find another solution to the problem? My idea was to use the lead-loc followed by a stop end, which would be neat(ish) and would allow the supply to be used in the future if ever needed (I would remove all the lead piping if it wasn't for the access problems).

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Tom

[BigWallop]

Have you checked that the pipework from the meter is in copper, and that you can't disconnect the supply from that end to both the gas fires ?

If you could find the point the point where the pipework branches off to the different appliances, it might make life a bit easier for you.

And compression stop ends are not really allowed as a permanent cap for gas pipes. Even if you have wrapped them all in PTFE tape.

[Dave Plowman]

Don't think a compression fitting is considered adequate as a concealed gas connector.

[IMM]

I know of no regulation that says so. The old gas boards would only use soldered copper joints with compression only at the appliance connection point. There was no regulation that said that was mandatory.

You are "not" supposed to wrap a compression olive in PTFE, even the gas PTFE. The PTFE makers say do it, which of course they will say. You clean the pipe, insert a new olive and a light smear of jointing compound around the rim of the compression fitting. The smear is unofficial. Just a dry joint is supposed to enough using good quality fittings.

[Tom W]

Hi,

thanks for the response. Getting to the area where the gas pipes branch off isn't really feasible (behind kitchen cabinets and under the floor in an tight corner). I've followed the gas pipe as far back as I can, and it's lead all the way (on the length that's reachable), so I think stopping the lead pipe is all I can do.

Cheers

Tom

[John Stumbles]

I'm pretty sure Lead-loc fittings are not approved for use with gas (meaning that by law you are not allowed to use them). Your bash-it-flat technique would also get you thrown out of a gas assessment with a flea in your ear, not to mention a RIDDOR on it to the HSE!

Unless you can make a (good) soldered joint to the lead you should either get someone in who can do it or renew the other pipe runs so your lead branch becomes disused.

[steve]

Unless you have experience of making reliable wiped lead/copper joints then leave it to a good corgi fitter might be an idea to go for an older one as prob had more exp. of working with lead

Might it just be simpler to have new copper run from meter to gas cooker and boiler?

then you wont have the worry and maybe get a bit of the money back on the scrap lead?

Steve

[Dave Plowman]

You say it must be left to a CORGI fitter, but then stipulate probably most won't be able to work lead? Fooking typical...

[fred]

In article , tom w writes

You may find that the pipe is not lead at all, but "block tin". I've got some of this that I took out my place & it has a smother finish than lead and will be very shiny if cut or the oxide removed.

Good news is that if you remove it you will get many times the price that lead fetches at the scrappy. Unfortunately it will be many times more difficult to work or to cap than lead. If you try to form wet joint using a blowtorch you will likely end up with a large blob of liquid tin on the floor (low melting point and abrupt change of state) and if you use compression, the thin wall thickness is likely to collapse.

I'm sorry to say that in your place I would take it back to copper, even if that means breaking open floors/walls.

ps: the scrappy will tell you it's lead - it's not . . .

[steve]

Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days

Steve

[steve]

Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days

Steve

[steve]

Well was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with that experience

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days

Steve

[steve]

But I did say unless you have experience yourself

And was also taking into consideration the fact that the op said he capped the other with a comp stop end. As you said not the correct thing to do when under the floorbaord where i presume it was capped. Capping a pipe with a solder endcap one of the simpler soldering jobs compared to flatening the end of the lead and soldering it up or joining in a piece of copper and then capping it.

But yes the skills base for a lot of trades isnt what it used to be how many plumbers noadays would be able to do all the jobs plumbers used to do lead roofs flashings etc etc thats why i suggested looking for one with experience of doing that sort of joint

Talking of lead joints i noticed my local builder/plumbers merchants still has stopcocks for use with lead no compression fitting just a taper looking very like a cask tap god knows how old they are I gather the boss keeps them to remind him of the olden days

Steve

[Tony Bryer]

In my first job I worked with a guy (who would now be 90ish if still alive) who trained as a plumber. One of the tests for apprentices was to boss a bend in 4" lead soil pipe, then hacksaw through the bend to show that the wall thickness was constant. We sure have it easy!

[IMM]

I had to do the same bashing out a lead flue tile with a lead dresser.

[Ed Sirett]

I'm pretty sure any lead pipe left in an existing gas installation is cause for at least an At Risk notice. I'm not enirely sure the OP isn't from Scandinavia? Otherwise he should read the FAQ and leave the job to someone is knows what they are doing.

[Dave Plowman]

As a matter of interest when and where was lead gas pipe used? My Victorian house had lead for water and lead sheathed cable, but iron barrel gas pipes.

[BigWallop]

Our old house in Edinburgh had block tin as its gas pipes. Never heard of lead on the gas supply either Dave. (you know it's block tin if it creakels)

[Ed Sirett]

I've seen plenty of defunct small bore lead for lighting in ceiling voids. The youngest peice of lead I'v seen in any live gas installation was a

1958 house. The lead was probably from original installation, but had not been removed by and subsequent meter change or Natural Gas conversion crews. Also it was (perhaps wrongly) accepted by the fitter who installed the gas boiler in 1972-1975.

[BigWallop]

If it was inside the house Ed, then it more than likely was made from block tin (it creakels when you bent it so you know it's block tin) rather than lead. Block tin is more inert than lead if pumping gas (town or natural) through it. It could also be extruded to thinner wall thicknesses and keep its strength better than lead could, so it was the better method used inside the houses.

So it might not have been lead you seen, although the two do look very similar in appearance.