Knocking down non load bearing wall

[PeteZahut]

Just reading through some old threads on RSJ's and supporting walls. What would be the correct way to knock down non load bearing walls? Say for instance you wanted to make a sort of open plan kitchen/diner but you still wanted them to be seperate rooms. To do this you leave say three feet of one side of the wall, three feet the other and say 4 courses of bricks at the top. Would you still need an rsj for that or would a length of

4x4 be adaquate, the span would cover about 6 feet so not a huge amount of weight on it. Any ideas? Pete

[David W.E. Roberts]

(1) I am not an engineer.

(2) Wouldn't it be easier to completely remove the non-loadbearing wall then construct a stud wall of the design you require? No problems with supporting a few courses of bricks near the ceiling then.

(3) I presume you would need some sort of lintel if you decided you wanted to keep the bricks. Sounds like a lot of aggravation though.

(4) Are you absolutely SURE this wall isn't load bearing? Builders often prefer stud walls for non load bearing applications .

HTH Dave R

[Harry Bloomfield]

PeteZahut was thinking very hard :

Bricks would seem to idicate that it might well be a supporting wall. Builders tended to use much lighter materials for none supporting walls, such as stud/platerboard, or light weight blocks, or plaster laiths.

If you are suggesting putting bricks in as a partial divider, then why not use a stud wall construction, with perhaps a light weight arch over the top?

[PeteZahut]

I'm pretty much certain it's not a supporting wall, a friend over the road says its not too. The joists above run the same direction as the wall, there is no wall above it either. All the walls upstairs of made from a hollow lightweight breeze block type brick. The house was built in the 50's. I'm just toying with the idea now but dont fancy having to make a stud partition for two reasons. One=the bricks are already there, easy enough to whack out a course of bricks, shore up the remaining bricks then take the rest of the wall down. Two=the ceilings in the two rooms are artexed (yeh I know we all hate artex) but with two different designs so dont really want to be patching these up. Ive seen some houses with 4x4 bridging some spans so is that an acceptable alternative? Pete Pete

[Lobster]

It's going to be far more hassle to shore up the bricks! Have you done it before?

Making a stud partition is really pretty easy; and you'd just build in a bit which spans the gap in the same way you're envisaging for your shored-up bricks.

David

[PeteZahut]

Not exactly but I have moved a doorway in a wall, admittedly its not as wide but surely its done on the same principle. I carefully took one row of bricks out, 12inches wider than the door frame to be put it, inserted an old concrete lintel (could have used 4x4?), made sure that was all secure and resting six inches either side of the frame, then removed the bricks for the new doorway. Wasnt that hard really. Hardest part was taking out the first row of bricks carefully without moving the ones above. I done it slowly rather than attack it with a sledgehammer :p

Yeh I know but if I do it that way, its just extra work on top, there's the making the studwork, patching up of the two ceilings, plastering the new stud wall one side, the kitchen is tiled so would have to try and find matching tiles. Seems like a lot of extra work when I could easily just carefully remove the unwanted bricks. Pete

[BigWallop]

Bricks don't hold themselves up, and they are far heavier than a hollow insulated timber stud. If the wall is brick construction all along the whole wall, and even if the rest of the building around it looks as though it isn't, always check that it isn't supporting or bracing something. The wall might be in brick to stop the other two walls on either end from bending in their middles, so please don't assume. Or it could actually be there to reduce fire hazard to the rest of the property, so take all these facts and situations in to consideration as well.

Far easier to remove the heavy bricks completely and make good with a proper light weight timber stud. You should find that a proper stud wall will cover more of what the brick wall covers now, so you shouldn't have any major fiddling with decoration after it's done. Probably nothing a good squirt of Decorators Caulk wouldn't fill.

But, Please!!!! Make sure you understand the implications of a fire break wall or door between a kitchen and the rest of the house, AND, make sure the wall isn't, and I mean is not, supporting or bracing other parts of the property.

[nafuk]

without

sledgehammer

actually be

Bricks can hold themselves up, but usually only if there is enough weight above them to 'key' them together. From what you have you may find that because there is no weight above these bricks that when you start shoring them up they will get loose and fall down anyway. I've taken out 4x4 that have suppouted single brick load bearing walls - possibly use C24 grade wood rather than the usual C16 - you can tell the difference since it will feel twice as heavy. To leave bricks in place use a local (not HSS etc.) to rent a couple of acrows and some strong-boys. End-bearings need to be 150 mm or greater. It is possible to fit 4' ft French doors etc. in a 9" wall (requiring the removal of 5 foot width of brick) without supports. I've heard of 8 ft sections being removed without support!