Knife sharpening problem

[fred]

I got a kitchen devil sabatier style knife for someone as I was frustrated at having to use their crap knives when I when to visit and cook.

It's been a total pita to sharpen since day 1 and I got the impression that the material was either too hard or that the blade thickness directly behind the sharp edge was too thick for it to sharpen to a good edge.

Looking at it the other day it seems that the sharp edge has started to break up:

'm going to try to regrind and resharpen it properly but I wonder if the material is too hard and should I try to do anything with it annealing wise before I start.

Knife is 8" cooks apparently with a one piece forged bolster and I use a cheap (but otherwise effective) kitchen devil sharpener, the one that looks like 2 mini chefs' steels crossed and moulded into a black plastic handle.

Any advice?

[jkn]

Kitchen Devils are not very good knives, and neither are those sharpeners.

For Kitchen knives, personally I prefer Carbon Steel Sabatier-style knives. Note that Sabatier is just a 'label' nowadays, and doesn't necessarily denote quality. Carbon Steel knives are difficult to find but take an edge much better than Stainless.

For proper sharpening, I use a waterstone, but I realise this is a bit poncy, and more expense than most would want to pay. For instance, a Spyderco Sharpmaker is pretty good for sharpening, but not much shy of =A350. As an alternative, learn to use a cheap oilstone and get them properly sharp to begin with.

Once a good knife has been properly sharpened once, in ordinary kitchen usage I find it's only necessary to keep the blade 'topped up' by using a kitchen steel. I recommend you find one of those and learn how to use it (easy). I haven't needed to re-sharpen my knives in over a year of daily usage. I steel them probably every second or third time I use them.

(I have a 'well-regarded' Global Stainless Steel knife as well as the Carbon Steel ones. The Global doesn't take a good edge and needs sharpening, as opposed to steeling, more often. I think they are vastly overrated)

It is of course possible that the knives are being abused whilst your back is turned... that wouldn't help.

here's a long article for your enjoyment:

HTH J^n

[Peter Scott]

I use a fine grade flat diamond lap to sharpen my Global knives. The sort they sell in packs of three different grades at Lidl from time to time, and other places. Two strokes on one side with one in between on the other is enough to make them keen. I've glued the lap into a wood block intended for a whet stone. My chef son uses a steel or ceramic sharpener. I have used a Global blue stone. Wonderful edge but the stone was short-lived and horribly expensive. I went to a Chinese cookery masterclass once and the chef from Shanghai honed his cleaver only once a day on a stone. He used soft wood chopping boards though. His cutting was magical.

Knives are a matter of individual preference. I love Globals. I only need two. The tiny paring knife and a standard chef's knife.

In the end you will wear the edge back into the thicker part of the blade and then will either have to get it thinned by regrinding or buy a new knife.

My mother-in-law used to sharpen knives on the door step. The resulting spatula was so useless I had to take my own knives when I wanted to cook. She used scissors quite a lot to cut up ingredients.

[Harry Bloomfield]

jkn pretended :

We have a couple of the sharpeners and I can get a razor edge on most knife blades, but I agree on the quality of their knives.

[fred]

In article , Harry Bloomfield writes

Agreed the KD sharpener isn't great but it is fairly idiot proof so there's a chance it might get used a little when I'm not there. I also have one at home which I use through sheer laziness as it does an ok job on my own old but good quality knives.

I may have been spoiled with my own knives, I bought good ones 10-15yrs ago and they haven't chipped or needed a full re-grind in all that time.

Again agreed that the KD knife isn't the best but I am hoping to rescue it. I haven't ever had a knife edge chip like that just through sharpening (perhaps over 2 years) so it was that that made be wonder if it was a blade steel issue. I could go for a full sharpen per jkn's suggested article (excellent resource btw, thank you) but I'm wondering whether it is worth experimenting with trying to take the hardness out of it first.

[Andy Dingley]

It's not the knife that's the problem, it's the sharpener. Steels are a _really_ bad way to sharpen. For one thing, they're too difficult to use - more so than a stone. A steel only works on a relatively soft edge and (especially if it's too hard) they will indeed do a lot of damage to an edge.

The easiest kitchen knife sharpener is the sort with two ceramic wheels that roll, all inside a plastic benchtop case. They're all made by Kyocera, but they're sold under several kitchen brands.

The best sharpener is a waterstone. Cheap man-made waterstones are fairly cheap. Not easy to learn though.

The cheapest reasonable sharpener is probably a triple diamond set from Aldi / Lidl. Don't try to sharpen a big knife on a small stone, it's much too difficult.

I'd second the recommendation for Globals. They're the least-trouble halfway decent kitchen knife around. Kitchen Devil are cheap & nasty. Sabatier are quite good, so long as they're Thiers-Issard made and have an elephant logo. Carbon or stainless, take your pick (but if you want stainless, go with the Globals)

[brass monkey]

best part of 30 years or so, never been sharpened and still perfect for the sunday roast. I have to say, however, that the sides of mine are far smoother (chrome looking) than the one in the above link, which tends to drag.

[Alan]

In message , Peter Scott wrote

I too use Global knives and use the sharpener with ceramic sharpening wheels running in water

(A couple of years ago i found one from a UK seller at around £25)

[Tabby]

it breaks up again after sharpening, I'd grind it to a less sharp angle.

No matter what you do, you need to remove bulk metal, so the fine edge perfecting approaches to sharpening are not what you need. You need to reform a proper edge shape before you can sharpen it.

NT

[Peter Scott]

My younger son swears by these. I've never used one. I suppose its my background in woodworking tools. I like to feel the correct angle.

[The Natural Philosopher]

You need to but two things.

1/. a carbon steel knife. This will rust in the dishwaher, but at least its hard enough t take an edge that stays for a few days.

2/. a diamond steel.

No stainless steel knife ever keeps an edge. They are decorative, but not that useful.

[fred]

In article , Tabby writes

Thanks to all for the tips.

As the blade was full of chips I filed it blunt, holding it in a vice and running along the length of the blade until it showed clean. I took care to keep the blade shape by even filing. This took a long time as I believe this blade is over hard and because I resisted the urge to use power tools.

I decided to use an oilstone to do the reforming/sharpening and bodged up a jig to keep the oilstone at a conservative 20deg to the blade axis. It took 500-1000 strokes each side to get the blade back to an edge after being blunted and another 100 or so each side with the fine grit side of the stone to finish it off.

Finally I gave it a few runs over with a steel.

It's now an acceptable knife to use although nowhere near as good as my own Henkels.

I'll see if I can get a better sharpener to leave beside it when I take it back.

Thanks again.

[john brook]

it breaks up again after sharpening, I'd grind it to a less sharp angle.

No matter what you do, you need to remove bulk metal, so the fine edge perfecting approaches to sharpening are not what you need. You need to reform a proper edge shape before you can sharpen it. NT

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cheapest diamond coated 'steel' i've seen as yet is at Ikea. they are *all* you need. use wet to prevent clogging. if your knife is useless just work at it until 'bingo' it cuts like a razor. then use sparingly.

[fred]

In article , john brook writes

I see Slitbar sharpening steel (diamond coated) £15.31 but also a ceramic 'steel' Flaksa £9.18 and a draw through sharpener Aspekt £5.10 which the (unclear) picture suggests might be a ceramic wheel one but not sure. I'll drop in and take a look when I'm next passing, thanks for the tip.

[stuart noble]

We have a sharpener on the wall so I can hold the knife with two hands and pull it through. Just steel rollers in there, but it works a treat on our normal steel knives. I've been to peoples houses where the kitchen is full of fancy knives and sharpeners, and you still can't cut a wafer of ham

[MelaniePalmero]

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Hi Fred, I suggest you try diamond steel. It's not round-shaped so the 22 degree angle to the steel is guaranteed. You might alsowant to check out Chef Phil's video for a more detailed info on that.