Kitchens and Boilers

[Dan delaMare-Lyon]

Morning All,

So - SWMBO has expressed a keen interest in looking at kitchens in the new year sales...and i have to admit that I've just about had enough of the "architects special" that we have left over from the former owners "efforts".

This raises some questions.

Firstly - the boiler. It's right in the inside corner of the kitchen under the chimney. Old floor mount Ideal Mexico Slimiline CF45/55 (can't recall without whipping the door off and it's a bit like arkwrights till so won't do that just at the mo - but my mind says the 45k BTU one). It's ~ 15 years old, and still in good working order, but, not particularly well located for the sort of refit of the kitchen we both have in mind.

So - the question has to be asked - replacements....what *are* the options these days?

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as clued up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder is only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I guess that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of the existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be more or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

If it has to move - it's to the complete opposite side of the house :( Floors up, ceilings down, outside wall job and that's not attractive either as - owing to the age of the house/location of windows - it's would be sat on a wall between two windows standing out something like a sore thumb an dprobably take 3 days to re-jig the pipework never mind the new floors needed as a result.

Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a while back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the ease of routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I can't recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to have had an attack of EU regulation since then!

On the kitchens subject - anyone care to suggest any suppliers of "proper" kitchens (cherry or oak doors preferably as they seem to be the best "visual" fit for the house). We looked at a local kitchen studio place yesterday and got the feeling that the "job" done by them would cost something of the order of £20k - which is about £15k labour and £5k materials at vastly inflated prices - so - anyone got any ideas??

Happy Christmas one and all......

Cheers dan.

[Andy Hall]

The short version is that unless there are extenuating circumstances, you have to fit a condensing boiler. There are details of what those can be on

Type the keywords "boiler assessment" in the search engine.

Based on what you've said, I doubt if there's an exemption, and a condensing model would be desirable anyway.

There are floor standing models such as the Worcester Bosch Highflow which is a storage combi product.

This is one, and there are a number now that can use pairs of 50mm high temperature waste pipe as air supply and flue.

Had you thought about the loft as a place to install the boiler? or the airing cupboard?

I would have thought that it is worth going to a little effort to gain what amounts to an appliance footprint in the kitchen.....

I think that the first thing to do is to decide roughly on what you are willing to spend - although that may be iterative based on once you have an idea of cost ranges from talking to people and looking around.

Keep in mind that the sale discounts really are a con. A high list price is set by the volume suppliers and they then run pretty much back to back sales that must end this month. The sale price is the real price - compare that against things that are not on sale.

The next part is to consider the degree of individuality, attention to detail and design flexibility you want to have. I think that you are likely to get that either by very thorough researching yourself in terms of design ideas and materials (and it can be very time consuming) or by using a local kitchen design firm (shop around for these).

You can find better quality materials and fittings in places that supply the mid to high end kitchen trade than you ever will in DIY stores, so if you are planning for this to be a DIY exercise, then I would suggest looking for those. Some say that they will only sell to the trade, so one may have to print some headed paper to get in the door. Cash usually works.

I had a complete kitchen remodelling done about 4 years ago and selected one from a number of local companies, partly based on references and partly the design ideas and care taken to achieve what was wanted. I guess that we went through three or four fundamental design ideas and then many hours of going through details of fittings, materials suppliers and so on. This was an open book in that list prices and typical discounts were known, so margins etc. were easy enough to work out. They weren't the cheapest or the most expensive either, but have a good reputation for quality of installation, materials and service. I value those things quite highly, so was willing to pay for that to a degree.

I would avoid any of the national operations. These are the ones like Kitchens Direct, etc. who are playing the numbers game. Coincidentally, I had a call from one of them yesterday afternoon - I had forgotten to register one of my ISDN numbers on the PABX with the TPS. The initial call was from an Indian call centre, followed by somebody from the UK. The story was that they had "surveyors" in my (area code) area yesterday and would I like a free, with no obligation survey and design. He added that they weren't necessarily trying to sell me anything, but that we could have the ideas ready for when we were ready to do something. Not having much to do, I played him along for about 15 minutes. There were the obvious things that he wanted to be sure that both of us were here "so that they could get the design right". Sure. I asked him how long they typically took to do a design, and was told that sometimes it could take as much as an hour, so that was why it was important to have us both there. I let him spin his yarn before asking whether they could do something equivalent to a Smallbone kitchen. He assured me that they could. I wished him a happy Christmas and suggested that he might like to do a little market research over the holiday period.

The best advice I can give you is not to be swayed by sales or offers but to take time over it. Whether you are going to spend £5k or £25k, you will be glad that you did.

[Dan delaMare-Lyon]

Cheers Andy!

Gets me thinking...

[Rupert]

My deepest sympathies--I have been through a similar exercise. It's time for a new boiler just admit it and get a few quotes and ideas from plumbers. Buy the kitchen you want and if you do not want to diy then get a local joiner to fit it

[Dave Plowman (News)]

IMHO the quality of the fitting is far more important than the quality of the units themselves - even shed ones can be pretty good.

[Dan delaMare-Lyon]

I don't doubt that condensing would be "agreeable" (as in more efficient) - it's whether or not it involves so much work and labour that any potential saving frmo having the condensing until would be vastly outweighed by the changes needed elsewhere...?!

Hmm - I'll have a look at that - thanks.

Reading back actually - Andy, it was you who suggested this one originall - finally found the post!

Loft - yse thought about it, but SWMBO is worried about having it up there - plus - as it's just battens and slates, no felt in there, it's rather draughty and tends to get a little damp (not damp but feels damp and cold on wet days I think is what I actually mean) - I'd be worried that it would rtificaily age the boiler - but - if the tanks in the roof space were to go it would be a perfect place to put it as all the pipes are already up there!

Airing Cupboard is in the little'uns room. It's got the hw cylinder and controls etc in it at the moment and I'd be worried for her safety (albeit probably unnecessarily) - but the question still arises - how do you get air to it/from it if you put it there I guess.

Well this is a slimiline that's in there at the moment so between 300 and

450 mm wide - yes it would be nice to be shot of it - but equally if to be shot of it costs as much as the raw materials for the kitchen.....

Ta - will see what we can come up with on this front. It will probably be a DIY 'cept gas works and sparks, plus I'm not doing the worktop jointing - got on badly last time so it can go to a mate who is gifted in that area....

Cheers dan.

[Dan delaMare-Lyon]

Yup - realising that now - but I have to say 24 hours on and I'm a lot less scared at the work to be done - thanks largely to Andy Hall and his suggestion about using the loft :)

Ta

Merry xmas one and all!

Cheers dan.

[Andy Hall]

There's very little in it, Dan.

I presume that the current boiler is a conventional flue? Let's assume you stayed with a floor mount in the kitchen There aren't many conventional flue models left on the market. There's a broader range of room sealed and fan flue, and as far as I can tell, all condensing models are fan flue. Given that situation, unless you replace like with like, you would have to change the flue anyway.

The only remaining issue is to provision for the condensate drain. Generally in a kitchen this should not be an issue. Presumably you can get access to a waste pipe, a soil stack or an outside gully?

Take a look through the assessment rules. You might be able to find a justification for not going condensing if you look hard, but I would expect it to be difficult from what you've described. Of course, you may be able to find a fitter willing to bend the rules, but that's another matter.

There are a couple of others such as the Powermax.

It's a very good way of solving flue problems. Another option that it might provide is a kitchen location in a place that would suit your design better. There's no fundamental reason (as long as you can meet flue location on outside requirements, why a wall mounted boiler has to go at top cupboard level either.

Take a look at the Keston Boilers site (download the manual for the Celsius 25). Basically, the air inlet pipe and the flue are both done in 50mm plastic. Note that you can position the inlet pipe at a different place to the outlet if you like and can run over long distances.

I don't think that I would be concerned about loft mounting from the deterioration point of view - outhouses and garages are places and these are usually unheated. You do have to make frost provision by lagging pipes. Most modern boilers have an internal frost protection to protect themselves.

I probably wouldn't put the boiler into a bedroom. Not because of the fire risk, but because they do have a fan. Most are pretty quiet, so in a kitchen cupboard not an issue. Also, since they are modulating (output drops to match load), typically the boiler only runs flat out for water heating. However, in a bedroom in the middle of the night it might be noticable.

I'm not sure if these are still available - probably not at all in condensing or storage combi.

It seems to me that if you want to minimise disruption, you would be better off with a small wall mount system boiler in the kitchen and keep the cylinder etc.

OK. Then I would take advantage of the design ideas and fitments that the kitchen studios offer and then find a way to source them.

[Owain]

Through those plastic flue pipes, one in one out.

If your current boiler is open flue (not room sealed) then it already presents a significantly greater risk of CO poisoning and, if the vent pipe gets blocked and the thermostat fails, Very Big Bangs, than any contemporary replacement IMHO.

Owain

[Owain]

That is the Friendly Boiler Fairy keeping watch over the sleeping infant :-)

Owain

[Ed Sirett]

The disruption is not going to be because the newer boiler is condensing. The main areas that cause disruption are when a very different location must be found for the boiler. And the need to upgrade the controls (TRVs and cylinder stat) which you may well not have, currently.

It is very likely that the new boiler can go into much the same location as the existing. A wall mounted unit does not have to go high up, although freeing base unit space in a kitchen is nearly always a benefit.

.

[Dan delaMare-Lyon]

Yup conventional :) Flue has to change - I've done some reading now :)

I did indeed do that - put my mind at rest and seemed to be a decent bit of kit. Like the idea that it auto cycles to keep itself fit when it's not in use! Question that I was left wiht (bearing in mind I already see where the boiler needs to go - and don't fancy trying to get 50mm pipe up the already lined flue all the way to the roof from the ground floor) is.....how close toghether can the air/flue pipes be - and how close to the property are they allowed to be (as in any opening windows)?? I can see a ncie route where bugger all work is required to move the water pipes (in fact they get made shorter y about 1m) - the gas is already there, and we can lose the breath/vent pipe on the wall above the new cabinetry so would be uber neat. Couple of sweeping bends required, but other than that - it looks quite an easy run and would be at wall cabinet height giving us some useless space back on the floor for us to put another cabinet load of stuff in....

Yup - didn't think about the garage issue - makes sense actually to put the damn thing in the loft, lose the tanks, convert to sealed and be done with it - plus it's the least faffing with cutting holes in walls etc...

Well bizarrely Plumb Center still list our boiler thats in there at the moment (albeit the 10kbtu bigger one but dimensionally it's identical) for £750 - not sure I want it now though :) I rather like the idea of the keston....

Thanks Andy, Cheers dan.

[Andy Hall]

This was an example. Quite a number of other boilers have this option now, generally by use of an adaptor which fits onto what is typically a concentric fitting on the boiler itself. On these, the standard is a concentric flue (which can also be quite long) or you can fit the adaptor and split into two 50mm muPVC pipes. Note that this is high temperature pipe (also available from plumbers merchants). Details in manuals.

A lot have this nowadays. Internal frost protection and exercising of the pump are quite common.

If you download the boiler installation manuals, they almost always have the design rules. Flue termination siting is pretty much generic. Keston say that their inlet and outlet terminations must be at least 200mm apart. There doesn't seem to be a requirement on how far pipes need to be apart for the run. Note that you do have to make sure that there is a slope back towards the boiler so that condensate in the pipe runs back. You don't want it collecting there or dripping out of the flue terminal.

Exactly. Take a look at compartment ventilation and clearance requirements for servicing when you are planning. Some boilers now release so little heat through the case that no compartment ventilation is needed. However, on those that require it, if you are mounting in a wall cupboard, you may be able to achieve it by cutting part of the bottom and the top away.

Another useful kitchen design trick is fly-over shelves. Basically, these are a shelf at the height of the top of the top cupboards (perhaps 200-250mm deep) with cornice fitted to the front. Visually, these connect runs of cupboards together and also provide a place to run cables and pipes out of sight. In addition, you can fit downlighters to provide accent lighting against the walls.

You would typically not have the boiler size issue either, and could either go for a decent size combi or for a system boiler driving a heatbank. (Christian did this, I believe).