Apologies for the long posting - need to let off some steam!
Just having my kitchen fitted at the moment and have a few questions I'd like to ask this group.
Would you expect if a fitter drilled a hole in the wrong place for a handle which shows from the inside of the cupboard that you should get a new replacement door? It appears my fitters have done this on 2 doors, to me this is shoddy workmanship and I want 2 new doors, is this unreasonable?
I have an integrated baumatic double oven, however the oven doesn't fit very well in the housing. By this I mean they have fitted a small strip of wood as a filler at the top and put an old piece of wood underneath the oven which is actually visible if you crouch down. It appears also that this bit of wood has bent some metal things at the bottom which I was told were vents that needed to be kept clear is this true? and would you say this is exceptable fitting? I personally think its a pile of crap but what do I know about kitchen fitting!
3 The worst problem of all is that the fitters have actaully hacked off plaster on my newly plastered chimney breast to make a unit fit, this has ruined the plaster on the face of the chimney breast and also looks bloody orrible as there is a 1 inch gap between the unit and the unplastered wall where you can actually see the bonding compound. This was down to the fact that the kitchen was measured up before it was drylined and of course after drylining the measurments were different, I did request that the kitchen company who shall remain nameless at this point should re-measure but they decided not too.
Anyway if the fitters cant rectify this how do I stand on getting the company to sort this all out seeing as Ive paid them all their money now!
Was this before or after the sales contract, if after I *suspect* it's down you, how do you know that production had not already been carried out and thus unchangeable IYSWIM ?
All you can do ATM is to make a list of 'faults' and ask for a meeting with a senior member of staff, until you know what the official line is on these faults (not what the fitters said) you wont know if you need to fight or they are going to put their hands up and carry out the rectification work.
No. It's quite reasonable to ask for and expect new doors.
No it isn't acceptable - it's a bodge.
Then they need to get it appropriately replastered.
That's the big mistake. You should have withheld a substantial proportion (at least 25%) until you had done a thorough inspection in your own time and satisfied yourself that all is well.
Is it an arrangement where you paid the fitters separately from the supplier of the units?
In any case complain in writing to the company and in any case try to get them to take responsibility even if the fitters were a separate entity. If the company is reputable, it may not want to have upset customers and may choose other fitters.
Ultimately, you may have to threaten legal action, but it's better to ask nicely first. Obviously a court would consider the amount paid, but even if relatively little, a good job should be done. These things are just carelessness.
Don't accept delays or excuses though. Realistically, nothing is going to happen now until 4th January, but it is worth at least registering the complaint.
I would suggest taking photos with a digital camera and sending copies with the faults clearly marked on prints. Send any correspondence by special delivery and hope that Santa brings you that Victor Meldrew starter kit on Saturday.
Fair trades office? Local paper? Complaints columns in magazines and national papers?
Sadly that is a foolish thing to do. You should always hold something back to cover the cost of repairs and replacements. The two doors for example are going to cost £100 or so for some other fitter to come and replace.
You won't be wanting the cowboys back surely?
Also the problem you are up against now is stonewalling, as no one is going to admit anything. You have to go to the shop with the offending articles, snagging list and pictures of the damage etc., and go when they are busy. And play effing hell.
The Fitters are contractors who fit kitchens for this company and others like John Lewis etc. I owe them =A3400 which is payable upon completion and I have to pay them directly. I paid them =A3700 today before I found all these issues. I dont want to upset them too much just yet because they will be coming back to finish off in the new year seeing as there were bits missing from the order. i will give them a fair chance to rectify all the bodges they have done.
Do you have any idea how I should ask for the oven to be rectified, is the filler part required? not sure if the oven unit should fit snugly in the carcase or not?? I have asked baumatic this question too. I also dont think they fitted the heat defelctor which according to the instructions, which I found in my garden is required in the carcase. Damn cowboys! should of DIY after all!
The Fitters are contractors who fit kitchens for this company and others like John Lewis etc. I owe them =A3400 which is payable upon completion and I have to pay them directly. I paid them =A3700 today before I found all these issues. I dont want to upset them too much just yet because they will be coming back to finish off in the new year seeing as there were bits missing from the order. i will give them a fair chance to rectify all the bodges they have done.
Do you have any idea how I should ask for the oven to be rectified, is the filler part required? not sure if the oven unit should fit snugly in the carcase or not?? I have asked baumatic this question too. I also dont think they fitted the heat defelctor which according to the instructions, which I found in my garden is required in the carcase. Damn cowboys! should of DIY after all!
Thinking more about it, some of the bodges such as the doors and the damage to the oven etc. are going to require new or additional materials and parts. Since those are going to have to come from the supplier, then I think it makes sense to rope them in. They may say that the fitters cocked it up and that therefore you are going to have to take it up with the fitters. In one sense true, but if they are reputable, they should take some interest, even if they push everything onto the fitters.
At any rate, I would in any case write to the supplier adding photos as described and take an assumptive approach that it is their issue since you "bought a kitchen from them and it was their recommended fitters". Strictly it is a separate contract, but this approach is worth a try.
I would watch the fitters like a hawk when they come back and obviously mention the deficiencies. Give them a chance to fix the issues and watch how they do it.
However, I wouldn't give them any more at all at the end of the job unless the result is pristine, and that includes doors. If they've cocked them up then they should at least get more on order from the supplier.
Generally they should, assuming that the sizes are correct. Don't the instructions say anything about the size of the aperture?
I think that all you can do is to check the dimensions carefully and refer to the instructions.
Richard wrote | 1. Would you expect if a fitter drilled a hole in the wrong place | for a handle which shows from the inside of the cupboard that you | should get a new replacement door?
In a very top-of-the-range kitchen yes, in a more modest job while I would hope for new doors I would not expect them :-) But I would expect at the least the holes to be blanked with those little plastic plugs used for, er, blanking unused holes on carcasses.
| It appears my fitters have done this on 2 doors, to me this is shoddy | workmanship and I want 2 new doors, is this unreasonable?
Not unreasonable but negotiable. If it were the worst of your problems.
| 2. I have an integrated baumatic double oven, however the oven doesn't | fit very well in the housing. By this I mean they have fitted a small | strip of wood as a filler at the top and put an old piece of wood | underneath the oven which is actually visible if you crouch down. It | appears also that this bit of wood has bent some metal things at the | bottom which I was told were vents that needed to be kept clear is this | true? and would you say this is exceptable fitting? I personally think | its a pile of crap but what do I know about kitchen fitting!
If they have damaged the appliance, even only cosmetically, that is unacceptable. If it's gas, are they CORGI registered?
| 3 The worst problem of all is that the fitters have actaully hacked off | plaster on my newly plastered chimney breast to make a unit fit, this | has ruined the plaster on the face of the chimney breast and also looks | bloody orrible as there is a 1 inch gap between the unit and the | unplastered wall where you can actually see the bonding compound. This | was down to the fact that the kitchen was measured up before it was | drylined and of course after drylining the measurments were different, | I did request that the kitchen company who shall remain nameless at | this point should re-measure but they decided not too.
As you gave them fair warning their measurements would have changed and opportunity to remeasure they are responsible for making good, even if you gave them permission first to deplaster your wall.
| Anyway if the fitters cant rectify this how do I stand on getting the | company to sort this all out seeing as Ive paid them all their money | now!
It's bodgery. But that's probably what you bought and paid for. What level of quality did you agree to ? Did you require that they not remove plaster ? Now mis-drilling a door is clearly not "good workmanship", but whether plaster needed to come off or not is quite another matter - it's a judgement call per-kitchen. Now if you let them on-site to do the work knowing that they'd mis-measured it, you're implicitly agreeing to its results.
You've paid them, you're screwed. When people choose kitchen fitters on the basis of price, not quality, then this is what results. If you want anything different from this sorry default, then it's incumbent upon _you_ to request and specify it clearly. The sad fact is that gross bodgery _is_ today's "reasonable standard of workmanship".
From what I can gather you have/will possibly be paying £1100 for fitting? If so I don't think you should expect master craftsman, on which I would suggest...
Yes, whilst asking won;t hurt I'd only expect the holes to be blanked off or filled. For handles we can only be talking about 4mm holes? and they didn't go right through to the face so I think it would be a very generous fitter that supplied new doors.
Doesn;t sound too clever. Check the fitting instructions closely and point any faults out and make it known you don;t like the look of it.
They should at least make good around the unit so the wall is ready to decorate.
It's clearly not the greatest workmanship. However if there is no problem with the outside of the door and the handle is on solidly I think you are asking too much.
If you want a better job then you should have done it yourself. I usually make up a jig from a couple of bits of 'contiboard' the few minutes it takes are quickly repaid getting the holes all in the right position, easily.
Not every oven fits perfectly into every housing. Most oven housing units allow for a lot of repositioning within about 15mm or so. However if they have damaged the oven that one's down to them to put right. There are lots of ways of getting the oven into a housing and making it look neat and not damaging it.
Sounds like the poor chaps have tried (and largely suceeded) in getting the kitchen units into a wrong sized room. Their management is the real culprit here...
It's going to be difficult in practice but you do have a case for the oven.
On my own fitted kitchen where I made this mistake in one place I filled the hole carefully with matching filler and now even I, knowing where the hole is, can't see it. I think I'd be happy enough if fitters had done this, however it'll probably cost them more in time than replacement doors.
For thre record the kitchen is what I would call a moderate cost. Its coming in including fitting and applicance around 16K without granite worktops, the handles alone cost =A3700 so it's not what I would call cheap, although there are obviously much more expensive kitchens around. The fitting is costing =A31700 which I thought was pretty cheap but at the end of the day these fitters are who this company uses. I forgot to mention that I had to pay money upfront to the kitchen company for the fitting too, I guess that was their cut. Also the room was a blank room as I ripped all the old out and had the place re-plastered and did all the electrics myself.
I have this morning presented my list of problems to the fitters. They have stated they will plug the door hole, I have said if it looks ok when you're done then I am willing to accept. In fairness they have been very willing to rectify everything so far. As for the oven which was also missing screws, they are going to remove the unit today, check out the damage to the vents and we will take it from there. Its possible that these vents can be simply bent back into shape. They have also stated that they could put larger screws into the oven housing so these hold the weight of the unit as oppsoed to the bit of wood underneath. He tells me that its normal practice (using wood) when floors and walls are out, which mine are as its a victorian gaff. He was worried that larger screws would crack the carcase and I'm not sure if I want to risk that.
As for the plaster, which was my major gripe, that hasn't been sorted out yet but they reckon they can make it good so it looks good and I'm willing to let them try. Its amazing really I watched them like hawkes all week working from home and as soon as I go out to get my hair cut, they hack the shit out of my plastered walls! and the haircut wasn't great!!! :)
Thanks again all for your feedback its much appreciated, have a great christmas!
Again - if you specified the model of oven, they should provide a housing to fit. Weasel room again = zero
Magnet? I'm feeling faintly familiar with this kind of sloppy project management.......hope it's not for your sake
You have one hell of a fight on your hands I'm afraid.......and I *do* sympathise - I've been there - 'we'll deliver the carcasses as soon as you've paid the full outstanding balance, sir'
What Andy said.....but unfortunately, I doubt you'll see a penny without going to court. I wish you every success, and *really* hope you have a happier outcome than I did three years ago when dealing with almost exactly the same list of gripes. (Please tell me it isn't Magnet?....)
Since posting my last message things have deteriorated on the fitting front. After talking with the fitter regarding all the problems he seemed to take it on board. However when I came back from last minute crimbo shopping (he was fitting Crimbo eve morning) he had really bodged things. he continually mis-drilled holes for the door handles and made a right mess of fitting the plinths, also the dishwasher door does not open fully due to it not being fitted high enough and therefore the door is hitting the plinth. He also did not use a. the same screws for the door brackets wacking anything in the first screw he picked up and b. only used 1 screw instead of 2 on 2 of the doors he fitted crimbo eve. I am taking it to the kitchen company now and I am refusing to allow this guy back into my house. I will be asking a company representative to come and inspect the quality of fitting for themselves. I am now furious, the fitter has had his chance to rectify I am going to give them some severe sh*it now and believe me they wont like it when I'm angry! :)
Oh dear. I rather feared it might degenerate into this.
Perhaps I can give you a few more thoughts based on some experiences where works were not completed to the promised standard.
I had issues with the implementation of a conservatory. It wasn't so much the standard of the materials and direct workmanship in itself, but of poor project management and carelessness leading to collateral damage. I had gone to great trouble to discuss and agree both things before work started, and lack of supervision led to problems including an insurance claim etc. I had held back a substantial portion of the payment until satisfactory completion.
I did the following things, some of which may be useful to you:
- Took plenty of digital photos of the areas of contention including putting a ruler in the shot to show sizes.
- Put everything in writing, sending it both by fax and special delivery. I itemised the issues in minute detail, and included every issue rather than letting the smaller things drop. I would have normally been more reasonable, except that I felt sure that there would be a battle. It was therefore better to include *all* the issues rather than going back later with some of them and appearing to move the goalposts. So definitely include any collateral damage. like the plaster.
- I also included a note of my time wasted in dealing with issues that should have been handled by the supplier had they done what they said they would do and managed the project properly. In essence, everything was loaded in.
- I sent this lot to the local office and unsurprisingly the response was slow and half hearted, along with a request for the completion payment. The package of information (which had grown to about 20 pages of history and photos by this time was sent to three of the directors of the company. If it comes to it, you can easily find out who they are and their home addresses from Companies House web site for £4. I sent the information to these individuals, special delivery at their home addresses, so there could be no possible excuse for not having received the information. This did produce some response and an offer in settlement way below what I had asked for, offering to fix everything and reduce the price by a token sum.
- I declined and stuck to my guns at that point. There were two letters asking for payment, followed by a "pay within 7 days or legal action" letter. I responded to all and didn't compromise at that point. The inevitable round of solictor's letters started to arrive and they got the full defect information pack as well which undoubtedly surprised them. Following that, the supplier's offer was increased. After one further round of negotiation, I paid a small amount of the outstanding figure which reduced the balance as claimed by the supplier below £5000. I made it £4995 and quite deliberately. THis is the level at which a claim is normally heard in the small claims division of the court, and would not have gone unnoticed by the supplier's solicitors. The reduction was for my agreeing to forgo my claim of my time used. In reality, this wouldn't fly in court anyway unless one has an occupation where time is explicitly billed. They probably knew that too, but the supplier offered some goods in kind "as a goodwill gesture."
- I sat back and waited and eventually after a bit more sabre rattling, almost all of the claim was agreed and most of the payment written off, provided that I agreed not to publicise who the supplier was. I also had the satisfaction of knowing that they must have spent at least £5k in legal fees.
You may not have quite as many cards to play with, but if there is a situation that you can create where you owe them money, don't pay and let them sue. It will be to their disadvantage to try it.
Did you pay for the kitchen by credit agreement or card, or perhaps a deposit that way? If so, tell the credit company and rope them in.
I would suggest giving the kitchen supplier the opportunity to correct everything, but I would accept no compromises at this point. If the fitter has cocked up more doors then new ones should be supplied. Anything that has been in any way damaged in fitting should be replaced. You don't have to feel bad about that because the margins are enormous.
I think that you will know a lot more about how to play this one when the kitchen supplier has visited. A key point will be whether they are prepared to own the problem or whether they try and push it off on the fitter as a fitting problem. If it's the latter, then you may well have to end up suing the guy to get your money back for the fitting.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that and the supplier does the decent thing.
Your method could not be faulted, Andy, but I always seek to get accepted compromises as early as possible. Some have the stomach for this type of thing, others don't, which is why these idiots get away with it. I have seen work that wouldn't have been accepted in a kindergarten where the recipient hadn't the heart to folow up.
I have always thought the quality of ANY kitchen ultimately lay in the hands of the fitter.
Not to cast aspersions of ANY of the foregoing I have little sympathy for those who seek the cheap answer and then expect Rolls Royce treatment.
I was referring to those people who always seek the cheapest quote/option and then complain about the quality of the merchandise/service provided.
I agree there are times where the quality of the service doesn't match the high price being paid, which is when you employ Andy to sort the buggers out ;-)
Last night after posting my message I decided to fax the kitchen company as I couldn't get hold of their customer services, I had been trying for 2 days. However today surprise surprise I did get a call back by the finance director of the company of all people, who had just by chance popped into the office to check for messages during the christmas period. He rang me as soon as he read my fax and assured me that everything would get fixed and that I would be 100% satisfied with the kitchen on completion. He is going to send an inspector to look at my kitchen on The 4th, he actually tried to get someone to visit on the bank holiday which I thought was good. He has promised to replace anything that needs replacing too and has said he will deal with this case personally and he will get his top fitter to complete the job, someone he has used personally in the past
Lets hope he lives up to his promise! Thanks for all the info
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.