Kitchen extractors - vented or recirculating?

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Would like to hear your views/experiences concerning kitchen extractor hoods. I'm planning my replacement kitchen and am debating the pros and cons of extractor hoods that vent through an outside wall compared with those that, by virtue of location on an internal wall must clean and then recirculate the air.
The hood will be located over a 900 mm wide 5 burner gas hob. The current layout includes an extracting hood but I'm conscious of all the (expensive) warm air that will be extracted along with the smell of burning food! I'm also aware that one can run ducting from hoods mounted on internal walls across cupboards to external vents but the 'internal' location of the hob would be on the opposite side of the kitchen from the outside wall. I could run ducting across the ceiling (unsightly) or through the ceiling void of the room above (difficult to clean the duct work).
Any views etc on which hood to buy would also be welcome. BTW I'm 6'2'' and resent banging my forehead on cooker hoods when peering into pots on the hob!
TIA Richard
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Extract don't re-circulate. The air may be warm but it is normally loaded with moisture which the filter won't remove.
Rob

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wrote:

There's really not a lot of point to recirculating hoods. The carbon filters will absorb certain of the smells etc for a short while but do nothing to deal with water vapour.
I would try to find a way to do a ducting arrangement since the results of extraction to the outside are very much better.
One solution that I have seen for ducting is to use a flat, wide type and run it along the top of the kitchen cupboards. You can create a flyover shelf between them and in other areas to continue the line. This also has the advantage that you can run cables and pipes and even locate LV halogen lamps which are very effective next to walls.
In terms of manufacturer, a large proportion of hoods sold, many as branded to appliance manufacturers, are made by Elica.
Elica has a wide range themselves and the UK distributor is DR Cookerhoods. www.cookerhoods.net
They sell through dealers and will recommend one. The last hood I bought came from TLC Direct on special order.
Some of the models in the range come with metal mesh washable grease filters. These can be removed and washed in hot water and detergent, so no consumable filters are required. .andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

Thanks Andy,
I'll contact Elica.
As for ducting - unfortunately there is no 'over cupboard path' across the kitchen (galley kitchen with doors at both ends) Sorry I should have made that clear. At their previous (pre first War) house my father solved a similar problem by ducting the extracted air down the back of the cooker and into the void under the floor. Not an option in my concrete rafted house.
Rgds Richard
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Richard Savage wrote:

You could take the ducting straight across the room, fit a 500mm wide board under it with a couple of LV downlighters in it.
--
Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'
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wrote:

That's awkward.
Are both doors to other internal rooms or is one an end wall? In that case you could go through that.
Otherwise, is it feasible to swap the kitchen around mirror image so that the cooker is on the outside wall? I know it sounds daft for the sake of a cooker and hood, but if the room is also relatively small, it's even more important to try and extract to the outside.
.andy
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wrote:

Right across the ceiling in 110mm pipe, paint it chrome and call it a "feature"? "The industrial look".
--
Niall

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Andy Hall wrote:

Hi Andy,
Both doors are internal, in walls perpendicular to the outside wall, but not in line with each other. The original plan was an 'L' shape surface along the outside wall containing hob and, across the corner, a 'designer' (Franke) sink some 300 x 430 mm. And a mirror image 'L' on the internal wall opposite containing the double oven in the corner of the 'L'. Having thought more about the sink, we have concluded that it will be too small for things such as grill pans etc. On the basis that we cannot run sink waste across the floor of the kitchen, we are considering relocating the hob to the internal surface and installing a standard size sink somewhere else on the external surface. The advantage of that is co-locating the 'hot' stuff and a useable sink.
I suppose that I could route a duct along the ceiling/internal wall junction through the top of the oven housing and then up into the ceiling void and so to the outside wall or just along the ceiling to the outside wall. <sigh> I wish one could attach files!
What do you think about cleaning 'in void' ducting?
Cheers Richard
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wrote:

Put photos on a web site and post the URL?

If you choose an extractor with a metal grease filter it will have a reasonable but not perfect effect on keeping down what gets through to the ducting.
Other than that, if you use flexible round duct, it may be simplest and cheapest to simply replace it periodically.
If you use the rigid stuff then you are going to need to find a way to make it demountable with reasonable ease.

.andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

If you can point me towards a free ISP that will offer some webspace and access via broadband I'd gladly post some pics. I do have access to an ISP offering part of this, but (a) they no longer accept BB access and (b) in any case they seem to have withdrawn the free webspace!
Cheers Richard
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Been following the thread and now I'd be interested to see photos up!
If you mail me some reasonable sized photos tonight and a bit of text to stick with them then I can host 'em for you and post a link. I don't think it'll generate a slashdot-magnitude traffic storm.... :-)
Can't guarantee they'll be there in perpetuity, but should be ok for the forseeable future.
-- Richard Sampson
email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
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Thanks to Mine Host, you can find the pics and current layout proposal at:
http://domino-177.billbuchan.com/olifant/olifanthome.nsf/richardsavagepics?openpage
Now, the first pic is the door in the top of the right-hand internal wall. The second etc move anticlockwise around the kitchen. (Scuse the mess) The, temporary, chipboard surface along the outer wall was installed when we moved in 3 years ago and discovered extensive rot in the existing kitchen units.
TIA to all interested contributors.
Richard
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Thanks to Mine Host, you can find the pics and current layout proposal at:
http://domino-177.billbuchan.com/olifant/olifanthome.nsf/richardsavagepics?openpage
Now, the first pic is the door in the top of the right-hand internal wall. The second etc move anticlockwise around the kitchen. (Scuse the mess) The, temporary, chipboard surface along the outer wall was installed when we moved in 3 years ago and discovered extensive rot in the existing kitchen units.
TIA to all interested contributors.
Richard
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wrote:

Very good, but I'm a bit confused.
The diagram is the new layout, right?
The outside wall is at the bottom of the diagram?
The new hob is in the bottom left of the diagram, i.e. to the left of the arch?
Could you elaborate just a bit because it doesn't seem that the duct would need to cross in that case..... Obvioulsy this is not the case......
.andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

Sorry Andy,
I guess that in the long, and learned, discussion the original question(s) have been blurred.
The current plan, as shown on the web, has the hob on the outside wall under a hood venting to the outside. In the bottom right hand corner of the plan is a Franke sink whose biggest bowl is some 300 x 400 mm. Diagonally opposite the sink is a double oven 'tower'. This is the only immovable item in the plan because of the need to hide a lot of CH pipes in that corner. Water and gas are placed along the outside wall only.
The design is over two years old now (enforced delay thanks to ICL deciding it didn't require my services when it became Fujitsu) and in that time we have ocasionally thought long and hard about small sinks. The only solution we can think of is to locate the hob next to the ovens and fit a 'proper' sink roughly where the hob is shown on the plan. That raises the problems of providing a gas supply to the oven side of the room (see another thread) and how to deal with smells and steam.
I briefly mentioned a extractor duct across the ceiling tonight and my beloved drew a deep breath and said 'no way'. I'll wait a bit and ask her exactly what she means by that ;-)
Best regards Richard
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wrote:

OK, so what I'm missing is what is wrong with the plan you have posted?
You have the hob and the sink on the outside wall?
Is the issue that you think that the corner sink is too small? 300x400 is a bit, isn't it. Is this their Papillon PAX 652-E?
Generally having the hob a long way from the sink is not a brilliant move, especially as it would be diagonally across the room and presumably the room is a thoroughfare? This could create a real danger.
Moving the hob to the other side of the room creates a major PITA, because you have to get the services over there and I agree, given the layout, you don't want a duct across at ceiling height. The only way that I can see that would make that half reasonable would be to run a flyover shelf across the top of the arch, as I mentioned earlier, effectively continuing the cornice line around the arch end of the room. You could use an extractor built into a top cupboard unit to complete the line, effectively stopping to the right of the window. The only thing is that that might make the room seem a bit narrow at that end. I wouldn't do that for either aesthetic, but more important safety reasons because of the hob location.
It seems to me that a better solution would be to keep the items roughly as you have them and do something to achieve a larger sink or a second one.
Can you put the washing machine anywhere else like the garage for example? Otherwise I wonder if there is a way for it to go the other side of the room on the oven wall?
Alternatively, could the washer go in the space the other side of the sink as you have it now where the plinth heater is shown?
This frees up 600mm under the window and you could put a second sink in there and a smaller one across the corner perhaps. It looks like you have about 300mm to play with between dishwasher and hob so you could perhaps move things around a bit in that respect.
The little vegetable sinks are a dead loss in practice - too small to do anything useful apart from deliver stuff to a waste disposer if you have one.
If you are tight on space, the best option is generally a double bowl sink You can drain things in it, stick a board on top for more space - a lot more flexible than a drainer.
You might be able to fit in a double bowl or larger sink by moving the dishwasher closer to the hob and moving the washer as mentioned.
Corner sinks are deceptive - they appear to be large and make use of the space but are not as big as you think in practice.

.andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

Yes
No, in fact I think it might be a Blanco Viva 9E. 330 x 420. Bit bigger than I remembered but still pointlessly small..

Yes, the 'breakfast room' is beyond the arch. What's wrong with not having sink near the hob?

Very much so.

Larger sink is the driver for redesigning the layout

Unfortunately not. The front of the garage is approx. level with the mid point of the room beyond the arch. And running plumbing and drainage to it would require major work. The washing m/c could go under the surface at the point marked 'plinth heater'. SWMBO has decided that the Myson Kickspace heater that was destined for this space is too noisy - I think that you can see it in one of the pics - and wants electric under floor heating. That frees a 600mm space which could accomodate the washing machine.

Ooops should have read this bit before answering above!

Yes!!
Yes yes!

Agreed, SWMBO thought it was big until I showed her how the dimensions compare with the existing sink.

Thanks for sparing time to consider this problem,
Best regards Richard
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wrote:

Sorry not to be clear. If you put the hob on the oven side, you have to cross the thoroughfare between the breakfast room and the end with the two doors (is that the access to the rest of the house and the back door?). If small children, cats,..... run through it seems dangerous to me. You have the oven on that side anyway, but I believe that conventional wisdom is that the danger is hot pans from hob to sink. That happens a lot.
Typically you want some worktop between hob and sink if you can.
What I was looking at was trying to get the sink along the run under the window.

Don't ignore the notion of having two separate sinks even if one is smallish - fitting a 400 or 500 mm unit - and the other a bit larger. Might be a useful idea - I'm not sure.

I didn't realise that the kickspace heater would wipe out the unit from being used for an appliance. Freeing that space up does seem to be the key to making this work.
Considering that the room is contiguous with the breakfast room, I wonder whether increasing the radiator size in there would be worth considering if you need it. The only thing to consider with UFH in the kitchen is that there may be times when a lot of cooking is happening and you want to reduce it. That takes time.
While I think of it, I think that having the extraction to outside, considering that the room is open plan is an important point.

You could even put the dishwasher under the corner where you have the sink shown now. It loses a bit of corner storage space relative to a standard 600mm cupboard but overall it may not make a huge difference.
You might have to build some mounting arrangement inside the corner cupboard to take the appliance, but it should be do-able.

You're very welcome.

.andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

Doors into carport (which is what the over-sink window looks onto) and back garden are through the arch on the left and right respectively. The doors at the opposite end of the corridor that calls itself a kitchen, with hinges adjacent, are into dining room and entrance hall.

Agree
To be honest I actually considered blocking up the window - as I said above it looks onto a carport and beyond that our neighbour's end wall.

Interesting. I'll not exclude it.

I'm not certain that the Kickspace heater does preclude fitting an appliance into the same cabinet. I made an assumption.

Absolutely.
The only heating in the breakfast room, which the previous owners built as an extension at a time when the boiler was in the kitchen (in the corner to the left of our current cooker - I think that you can just see the remains of the flue projecting from the wall, is provided by a wall mounted gas heater. The old boiler was so badly insulated that they had no need for additional heating in the kitchen! Now that we have a new CH system (albeit powered by a Potterton Suprima 100) there is no boiler in the kitchen. I found the Kickspace heater when we were in discussion with the plumber about rads in the kitchen as a better alternative to a space hungry wall rad. It kicks out loads of heat and the cats cluster round it. Unfortunately it is rather noisy, but this may be because it is only resting on an old doormat before it is built into the kitchen.

SWMBO may not consider this a disadvantage. She suffers badly from cramp in her feet when walking on cold floors, and this only happens in the kitchen in this house (even when wearing footware).

Yes
Worth thinking about.

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wrote:

I wouldn't do that. Working with artificial light the whole time in a kitchen is a bit horrible.

I think so. You have built under and built in appliances available and they appear to be full unit height including legs. I might be wrong there though.

They are a bit. Hence the idea of something in the breakfast room.

OK. Then you will need to think about that at an early stage. If you are thinking about electric UFH, then I don't believe that it incurs too much depth in addition to the tiles. Obviously any wet plumbed version does. Bear in mind that if you use electric UFH and don't have insulation underneath it could be a bit expensive to run. The house may already have insulation under the concrete of course.....
If you are going to go the whole hog on this it would imply digging out the screed or raising the floor level. This may not appeal too much.
How about using two plinth heaters in different places run at low settings?
If you have access to the heating pipes near the oven, how about putting one run from that in the corner near the oven. You have plinth space there and it would also be a lot less expensive to run than the electric one. You could perhaps use a CH powered one most of the time and boost it with the electric one when needed. Also, considering the shape of the room, it would give you some warmth more evenly distributed.

.andy
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