Keston Questions (noise and flue options)

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Paid a visit to the homebuilding and renovating show at Bath and West show ground yesterday (sat - also on today 30/11/03).
Bloke on the Eco-hometec stand said if you can't afford one of ours then given choice of Valliant thermocompact or Keston Celsius get the Keston.
In the Keston documentation there is a sentence (underlined) that says consider the possibility of the noise if installing near to a living area. Can anyone with a Keston comment on this ?.
Flue options - the best place (for boiler) is under the stairs (only 6 feet from the 3/4 inch iron gas pipe supplying the kitchen) and the flue can follow the underside of the stairs then go horizontally towards rear of kitchen and follow the 110 waste water stack up the loft, then either up to the ridge or out and down through the soffits.
Why can't I connect it to the waste stack ?. - i.e. well above the 'high tide mark' ?
--
Andrew (change P to K in s.ydata to reply)

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sPydata.uklinux.net> writes

They seem like be a nice bunch, I spoke to them a bit before deciding that I couldn't justify the extra cost of their (excellent) boiler. I chose the Keston.

I have it in the corner of my kitchen and do not consider it to be excessively noisy, but this is a long way away from the main kitchen action. It does have a powerful flue fan which is noticeable and could be obtrusive in a quieter area. I will be boxing mine in the long term.

They want the intake and exhaust flues to be balanced, that means running two 50mm uPVC pipes to your chosen exit point. Roof line sounds good, but be aware that you are not allowed dips in the route - soffit might be ok. Inlet & exhaust need to be separated by 200mm. Check out the pdf downloads at: http://www.keston.co.uk/products/celsius25.htm
--
fred

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Are you sure? The advantage of twin flues is that the exhaust and air feed can be in very different locations. The two pipes don't have to be near each other or the sae length. For e.g, the exhaust run up to a ridge tile and the air intake under the floor and penetrating the walls at low level.
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If the air intake is taken to an external wall and the exhaust to the roof ridge then there is a danger of wind pressure imbalancing the flue. I agree that if the intake air was taken from a wind neutral space, say underfloor, then that argument would be voided, but Keston specifically state that taking air from underfloor (or not from outside) will void the warranty. I assume that they are concerned about intake of dust etc into the combustion space and resulting damage.
Through necessity, my own intake & flueing arrangements are somewhat unusual, but I am not prepared to pass it on as a model for general consumption.
By contrast, the Eco Hometec guys are quite happy with you taking the inlet from neutral airspace and suggested to me that I could take intake from an unused but vented chimney which could then house a flexible liner for the exhaust. The difference in system cost however was IIRC 600-800quid.
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fred

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then
Keston.
that
the
be
flue
rear
either
'high
feed
tile
level.
So little it is not worth considering. "most" twin pipes systems can have exhaust and air intake in different locations, that one of the clear advantages of twin pipes.

underfloor,
I didn't say take the air from the airspace under the floor. This would drag very cold air under the floor cooling the house, the same with taking it from a vented loft space too (this is silly as insulation dust could be dragged in.
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The instructions for my Celcius 25 say a 'minimum' of 200mm, and explicitly state no maximum distance. I also recall something about not being permitted on opposite sides of a building but I can't find that now -- it might have been in the instructions of a different boiler I was considering at the time.
--
Andrew Gabriel

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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:47:17 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

It is in there somewhere - I suspect that because terminals on opposite side of the building are explicitly forbidden in the regs. I also suspect that having an instruction which is directly opposite to the regs would cause much confusion and would have casued a great deal of problems getting [Gas Council] type approval.
The OP should note that for a long rise (over 4m) on the flue a seperate drain and trap should be provided for condensate at the bottom of the ascent.
My own C25 takes air from a passage way under the house and terminates vertically through the (flat) roof.
I've yet to see the plume as the boiler is only on when someone's having a bath (reheating the cylinder) or for odd quater-hours here and there.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
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So what do you use for space heating ? - just curious. 800 for a Keston is an expensive way of heating water.
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Andrew
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wrote:
<<snip>>

This is fairly typical behaviour with a modulating boiler.
For example, this Keston model drops its power level down to 7kW - I have a different make which will drop as low as 3-4kW.
During a large part of the year, spring and autumn, and during the day through he winter, the amount of heat required is much less than the full output of the boiler. With a conventional boiler, the burner is turned on and off to reduce the average heat output. In the case of most types of condensing boiler, the burner power is reduced which reduces output and water temperature.
It is more efficient to reduce power than to start and stop the burner. Moreover, reducing the temperature increases the boiler efficiency as it is pushed further into condensing operation.
.andy
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writes

a
Depends on the burner design. A highly efficient spot rated burner (non-modulating) coupled to a heat bank can be very efficient overall.
Many top end developers are fitting Myson Kickspace heaters in kitchens. These require a high temperature flow for efficient draught free operation. The solution used to be an integrated thermal store as it provides 75-80C temps and a spot rated burner boiler always set to max temp. The efficiency was good as the burner was highly efficient with design maximised for a set rate.
Condensing boilers have advanced recently so now some approach it.. A DHW only heat bank with one high temp circuit taken off the heat bank for the Myson(s) and the CH circuit left to modulate on a condensing boiler. When the heat bank requires heat the boiler runs up to full temp. When back on CH it is left to modulate.

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Ok, but that's a different game. The background was a more conventional system.

Presumably this is to save wall space that would otherwise be needed for a radiator.........
We had one of these (actually a wall mount version) in a previous house to heat a stairwell and landing. It was effective but pretty noisy. I wouldn't have wanted it in the kitchen...

Wouldn't the main point be to get enough heat output?

I see what you're saying but it sounds like a lot of extra complexity - presumably an extra pump for the Myson circuit??
.andy
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wrote:> >Depends on the burner design. A highly efficient spot rated burner

Some have little walls space as they fill the walls with cupboards, and they fit them in the utility rooms too.

They are acceptable in kitchens as under the cupboards much of the sound is muffled. Also they blow hot air over your feet, which is appealing to many people.

operation.
You size to suit, but a temp flow is essential.

75-80C
efficiency
set
DHW
When
on
Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the kickspaces from the heat bank/thermal store. I wouldn't call that complex at all. They sometimes put in room stats that when satisfied cut the pump and Kickspaces.
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But still needs an extra pump, surely??

.andy
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wrote:> >Not extra complexity at all. Just a pump and flow and return for the

complex
pump
That is not extra complexity at all. Pumps are about the same price as zone valves. You could use the one pump and a three way valve and arrange the piping accordingly, but that "is" more complexity.
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OK. That's what I imagined.

.andy
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wrote:

zone
In the USA, they would use a bronze pump and connect the fan heater onto the fresh water supply from the cylinder, pumping fresh water to the convector heater. In theory there is nothing wrong with this, and in practice millions are done this way.
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They have some very strange ideas regarding plumbing. The water heaters have to be seen to be believed in terms of antiquated technology. PVC pipes for pressure applications undergound......

.andy
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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:06:05 +0000, Andrew wrote:

That's what the odd 1/4 hours are doing, basically replacing the radiator contents with luke warm water. Also the heat requirements are very limited having excellant insulation (neighbours) on both side and above the house and double glazing.
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Andrew wrote:

ROTFL!
You may have had a genteel upbringing and never participated in a 'light the fart' experiment in your teens.
Waste gasses both directly from humans and indirectly from decaying waste material such as in drains contain methane which is inflammable.
You migth get a blowback in the toilets etc
Bob
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Maybe I should rephrase that - why can't I convert the top section of the waste stack so that the 2" mupvc flue enters at 1st floor ceiling height and exits up through the roof *inside* the waste stack.That way the flue terminal pokes out above the stack by say 6 inches and the remaining cross section is still used to vent the stack. Since we are only discharging acidic steam at this point where does the possibility of exploding methane come into it ?
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Andrew (change .P. to .k. to reply)

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