Keston problem and solution

I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing boiler today. Switched boiler on to warm up a cold house. Arrive home a couple of hours later to find radiators only luke warm and a wonderful gurgling noise coming from the boiler. Actually, it was really quite loud if you went outside to the flue terminal. Someone reported similar symptoms here some months back and I speculated the combustion chamber was half full of water.

I was a little surprised the condensate trap could have blocked up in the six months since I cleaned it out, but anyway off with the front to look at the U-trap (you can see half of it as it's made of transparent tubing). Well, it looks remarkably clean, but maybe the muck is in the half you can't see as it's black plastic. Take the trap out and clean it through in the sink. One thing I didn't consider when installing the boiler was how easy it would be to empty the condensate U-trap, with the result that pretty much the only way to empty it results in chucking the water down the wall and over the floor -- there's nowhere to hold a bucket to catch it before it's been deflected in all directions by the pipework under the boiler. Oh well, something to bear in mind if I install another one. Still, remarkably little muck came out, but at least testing it under the tap shows water runs through it. Reassemble U-trap, prime it by pouring a pint of water in the flue terminal (my neighbours must think I'm bonkers;-), and fire up the boiler.

Next snag, it won't light -- oh bugger. It's going through the sequence, but claiming the gas won't ignite. I'm wondering if the condensate water got into somewhere it shouldn't have when draining it, e.g. maybe no spark. Extract the spark electrode (as the EHT cable absolutely refuses to unplug from it -- I suspect the heat has soldered the connector on over time). Anyway, a nice healthy spark, so that's not it. Check voltage on gas valve -- that's OK, although I can't see if it actually operates. However, I can smell gas at the flue terminal after it fails to light, so at least some gas must be getting through. The fan is clearly running. There's no air flow pressure switch in the Keston. Puzzled. Time for a cup of tea...

Have another try after the tea -- no joy, but I wander round outside whilst it's trying to light -- gurgling noise loud and clear from the flue. Where's the water come from -- the boiler hasn't actually lit since I cleaned out the U-trap? The sealed system pressure hasn't gone down at all since I last filled it 2.5 years ago. Oh well, out the condensate trap comes again, more water all down the wall and over the floor, although actually rather little. I'm now beginning to get suspicious that the combustion chamber is half full of water which won't drain out. Back outside, up the ladder, another pint of water in the flue (neighbours now sure I've lost the plot), but nothing comes out of the condensate drain (and it's not a problem in the trap as I haven't refitted it yet).

Next, remove the burner assembly from the heat exchanger chamber so I can look inside. What I can see is remarkably clean, but you can't see much due to the heat exchanger construction, and certainly not down to the bottom of the heat exchanger chamber. Pour a jug of water into the chamber, but nothing comes out. Try another jug incase the pressure of more water will dislodge whatever is stopping it draining, but this just fills the chamber up above the top of the heat exchanger. I'm trying to think how to access the bottom of the chamber. I could disconnect the flexible flue pipe from the heat exchanger, but that connection has to be very waterproof or condensate running back down the flue will leak into boiler casing and corrode it (as happened to someone else in this newsgroup), so I'm not keen. Instead, I disconnect the top of the pipe (where the direction it is socketed into the flue spiggot is not so critical for being watertight). Poke a stick down and give it a good wiggle around, but it doesn't clear whatever is blocking the condensate drain. The only other access is through the condensate drain. Find a short length of mains flex to poke up there and wiggle around. Success, and the two pints of water I had poured in plus the condensate which was stuck in the come out, gushing all over the wall and floor of course. Actually, I caught a good deal of it in a bucket this time, in order to find what was blocking the drain. Nothing very conclusive -- water is quite clean, although there is the remains of something which looks like a small jellyfish in there. Pour several more jugfulls of water through the heat exchanger to flush out anything else.

Reassemble the boiler, back round outside to prime the U-trap with yet another jug of water down the flue (neighbours probably got the camcorder on a tripod by now in preparation for a "You've been Framed" contribution). Start the boiler -- SUCCESS!

Maybe this storey will be useful to some of you with Kestons. I could also suggest to Keston that although they have a detector for condensate pipe blocked after the boiler, they have no detection for condensate U-trap blocked or the heat exchanger chamber filling with condensate for some reason (as in this case). This might be worth detecting, and would be easy to do using the existing detector which just relies on water contacting an exposed terminal. OTOH, it would seem that the boiler actually won't light in this state, although if already lit, it manages to carry on going for a while at least.

Back to a nice warm house at least...

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel
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But what of the jellyfish? How did that get in there? Are you going to get it analysed?

Could it be a small bird, or perhaps a slug crawled up the wall and in?

Reply to
Andy Hall

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote | I had an interesting problem with my Keston Celcius 25 condensing | boiler today. | ... prime it by pouring a pint of water in the flue terminal | (my neighbours must think I'm bonkers;-), ... | ... Back outside, up the ladder, another pint of water | in the flue (neighbours now sure I've lost the plot), ... | ... back round outside to prime the U-trap with yet another | jug of water down the flue (neighbours probably got the camcorder | on a tripod by now in preparation for a "You've been Framed" | contribution). ...

Presumably not the ideal choice of boiler for someone in an upper floor flat then :-(

Owain

Reply to
Owain

In article , Andrew Gabriel writes

Glad you fixed it...

I have had to remove the flexible flue pipe on mine to fix a leak of condensate at the bottom and it is not too bad to refit. You need to refit the bottom first (with the top not fastened) and use some silicone sealant round the bottom of it. When I had the leak problem, Keston denied that there should be any sealant on it (and what was I doing messing with it anyway, that was a job for the installer). However they had put some on mine, it just hadn't been applied properly, hence the leak.

Having fitted the bottom you can stretch the pipe back up to the top terminal and fit that.

Wee beasties can crawl down the flue pipe and end up in the burner / condensate outlet. The flue pipe on mine is straight through the wall, probably only about 12" long, so I can imagine things getting into the burner and dying.

Reply to
Tim Mitchell

There's no air flow pressure switch in the

The DC blower has a tacho on it which tells the controller that the fan's spindle is moving (if not the fan ).

I thought there was a condensate over flow detector (there is one on the C40 for sure) -- just checked -- not on the C25.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

Anthing that's gets has to be less than 10mmx10mm in crosssection (the inlet air duct terminal has a mesh over it), but also has to capable of blocking a 20mm diameter outlet hole.

I've not had any problems so far on the ones I've installed (27 months, 18 months and 6 months).

Reply to
Ed Sirett

Having thought some more, I have an idea. I've been experimenting with how low I can set the boiler temperature, the ideal being to set it as low as possible so the boiler doesn't cycle on and off via the roomstat, but runs continuously. This should give the most efficient condensing operation. Over the last few months, I've never had the flow temperature set above 50C, and for much of that it was only 45C. This isn't hot enough to kill off all bugs, fungii, etc. As others have commented, organic material does get sucked in -- some of it I find desicated in the bottom of the casing, but some will go on though the burner. This will leave organic debris at the bottom of the heat exchanger chamber. Now with the temperature at only 45C, it may be that some molds or other things can live there growing on this residue. A lump of something growing submersed bacteria/mold/algae on it might explain the jellyfish like thing I found bits of.

Well, it's the only theory I can think of at the moment.

Having had the burner out, I got to wondering what it looks like operating (there's no way to see it as there's no observation window). It was something like 3x8" in size, probably similar area to a radiant gas fire of perhaps 3kW. However, this element is 25kW, so it's probably quite spectacular if you could actually see it operating.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Andrew Gabriel writes

I run mine pretty low too, but I've modified it to run full whack for hot water demand, let me know if you want the circuit (after christmas :-). Mind you, it also runs full whack for 10mins or so at startup, but maybe that's not long enough to kill off the slime.

I didn't bother priming the condensate drain, no tundish, plumbed into a closed drain and testing showed it would half fill a bucket in a day so I reckoned the trap would fill in an hour or so of running. Also the CO content at the outlet was tiny as I'd just set it up ;-).

Reply to
fred

I'm sure they've modded units built this year to include a level switch on the condensate trap.

Out of interest, I've never 'primed' the condensate trap before. Is it necessary, as within a 30 minutes its full. As you say, when the flue is inaccessible, its not possible anyway.

Has anyone seen the 'judder' starting issue with the C25? Don't know the exact cause, but Keston have a retrofit that appears to cure it. If I get a report of this noise I just refer it direct to Keston and they send an engineer out.

I'd be interested to know what others use as the jointing compound between the flue spigot to the flue pipe.

Martyn

Reply to
Martyn Pollard

Interesting. I've built a replacement for the front panel indicator board, which allows me to remote monitor it and remote control the temperature setting. I've had it in the boiler for initial testing only, but at the moment it's sitting in a breadboarded moch-up on the workbench whilst I write the controlling software.

My Keston only does the central heating -- hot water is handled by a separate multi-point water heater. Without the type of additional temperature control we both seem to have developed, it didn't seem particularly suited to a combined heating/hot water system whilst also optimising the condensing mode of operation for heating.

The full whack at the beginning is just to get the water up to the set temperature -- I don't think it will result in the slime at the bottom of the heat exchanger getting any hotter than during normal running.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

I have a problem with mine where it seems to get into a "hunting" state where it can't seem to decide on the right pump speed. It does this when it starts up and full output is not required. This causes all the heating pipes to twitch and bang. I have consulted Keston about it but they say it is a problem with the system not the boiler.

What is the issue you refer to above?

The guys who installed mine just used solvent cement.

Reply to
Tim Mitchell

Mine, which is 2.5 years old IIRC, has a detector in the condensate trap. It is after the U-trap part, so it will only detect condensate blockage external to the Keston. If the U-trap blocks with debris, or if the heat exchanger drain blocks as mine did, the condensate won't get as far as the detector in the trap, and won't trigger that fault detector.

Several people have reported vibrations like you would get from a 32' organ pipe. I suspect this is either combustion oscillating back up into the pre-burner area or maybe an undamped feedback loop in the venturi gas valve. I had this on initial installation as the preset mixture adjustment was preset incorrectly.

I solvent welded it. However, my flue spigot turned out to be faulty (Keston's weld between the stainless steel and the muPVC collar wasn't water tight). I broke it apart (at which point you could see why -- the glue they used hadn't gone all the way round), and remade it myself. I roughed up the stainless steel and used a ring of solvent weld around the lower 3/4 of the area, and used a special acid-resistant high temperature silicone sealant in the top 1/4 to preserve the water seal even if the solvent weld didn't seal to the stainless steel.

When that had all set, I then solvent welded it to the muPVC flue as before.

I also used a non-setting sealant on the exhaust spigot gasket. (Initially I had thought that's where the leak was. However, it turned out the leak was in the manufacture of the flue spigot.)

Having had a leak, after I had fixed and reassembled it, I left the garden hose running slowly into the flue terminal for perhaps half an hour to be double sure there were no more leaks in the condensate path. Leaks of condensate will rapidly wreck the boiler as someone else reported here a while back. If I ever fit another Keston, I will do this check with the garden hose as a matter of course as part of the commisioning procedure.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

The top joint of mine had some sealant on it when I disassembled it. I didn't disassemble the bottom joint. Mine has the black flexible flue; I believe some earlier C25's had a blue(?) flexible flue pipe which Keston seemed to be replacing with a black one. Mine was black from the beginning.

Same with mine, although I suspect being sucked in the air intake is another possibility.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

Careful - we'll start calling you Andrew "Two Combis" Gabriel soon ;-)

Reply to
Stefek Zaba

I think its a combination of a very powerful fan and the small diameter of the air intake. Your analogy of the pipe organ might not be too far out. The powerful fan is needed to overcome the maximum resistance from the 50mm system. The 'fix' chokes off the air intake pipe to the fan.

They now ship a new and improved spigot which extends a little way inside the gasket. Presumably to prevent the condensate seeping through gasket.

The reason I asked about the jointing compound was to see if anyone else used a non-permanent seal, to aid future maintenance. I've used LSX which is also smeared on the gasket. Its a pity there isn't a more robust method of connecting the flue to the unit. IMO this is the weak link in the chain. A male flue pipe should go into a female port on the unit, which is how almost all other boilers are designed.

martyn

Reply to
Martyn Pollard

I'm interested in the circuit - I would like mine to do flat out for HW and then I could experiment with low temps for the rads.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

Perhaps one of the directors died? [Recalls story of Rolls and Royce who change the radiator hose colour on the death on one of the pair.]

Reply to
Ed Sirett

I must download the latest manual.

Well by the book the boiler is not room sealed until you do. but I'll confess that I don't either but I do check the trap is full before I leave.

Ah 'buzz bombing' as I call it. AFAIK after consultation with their technical dept it is due to the burner being slightly weak. You really need a combustion analyser to make sure that the CO2 values are in spec at both the minimum and maximum rates.

This is not intended to be a demountable joint [1]. So I use bog standard Black Swan brand 'solvent weld'.

[1] I'm nigh on certain that all of the flue joints (and air duct also) are required to be permanent. Should the flue need to be taken from the boiler then the flue spigot unit should be unbolted form the boiler.
Reply to
Ed Sirett

Well, "Two Separates" would be more correct in my case...

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

A win-win situation..... :-)

Reply to
Andy Hall

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