Is this wall going to fall down thanks to Anglian Windows?

[mike]

I've just discovered that my mother has been robbed --- sorry, I mean had her windows replaced --- by those bottom-feeding scum at Anglian.

In the gable end of her 1960's bungalow is a twelve foot long by six foot high picture window. The replacement window (like the one it's replaced) is in 3x four foot wide sections.

Since it was replaced a fortnight ago, a triangle of brickwork 12 foot across by ten courses high has detached itself from the rest of the wall along the mortar lines. At its widest, the gap that's opened up is 6 to 7mm wide.

I imagine that, when confronted, they'll say that it just needs repointing. Apart from looking crap if the mortar lines vary by up to

7mm, it seems to me that it needs a lintel installing and rebuilding properly, and that they shouldn't have let this happen.

The original wooden window was replaced with UPVC by a local company about 20 years ago and there was never any problem with moving brickwork.

Also, if you rap lightly on the pane at one end, the pane at the other wobbles visibly back and forth, suggesting the whole thing is as flimsy as shit.

Am I worrying unnecessarily about this or does it need major building work to correct?

Is it their responsibility?

Is it worth contacting the BCO?

Additionally, around the nine windows and two doors they've replaced, they've smashed bricks around every single opening. Prior to this, the brickwork was in perfect condition - 40-odd years old, weathered but whole and entire. Now there are great chunks missing out of the bricks where some ape has used a crowbar. In some cases, there's a third of the brick face missing and there're up to half a dozen bricks damaged round each window. I can't see any way that these can ever be repaired successfully. Sure you could drill them out and find matching bricks but they'll still stand out. Is there any way this eyesore can be minimised?

Again, am I being unreasonable in thinking that you could remove the previous twenty-year old UPVC units cleanly by simply taking out the sealed units and unscrewing the frames? Or cutting the silicone and putting a hacksaw thru the fixings?

They've smashed the granite kitchen window sill that matched the worktops.

They've also smashed half a dozen bathroom tiles and botched it by covering the lower half of each side of the window reveal with a bit of plastic fascia on which you can still see the saw marks.

The new kitchen door swings shut of its own accord.

And the completely out-of-place "wood-effect gothic" garage door (the finish of which looks like it was sculpted by a paralytic chimp) which was supposed to have darkened windows actually has windows that make the contents visible to any passing scrote.

And I won't mention that they sold a remote controlled garage door opener to a 75-year old disabled woman who doesn't drive or own a car.

I've just read the "guarantee" she was given - which is actually an invitation to be added to mailing lists for everything from pet food to Anglian's mortage advisory service. The guarantee is two years (that's less than you'd get on a ten-quid radio at Aldi) and specifically excludes things like weather damage (after all who's going to leave their windows outside?) or settlement. There isn't even a postal address - and of course you can't send recorded delivery letters to a PO box.

Obviously, in an ideal world, everyone connected with this company would be herded into a sports stadium and machine gunned but in reality what's to be done? Is there any way of getting redress against these vermin?

[Tim S]

mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

AFAICS they've totally screwed it up without excuse. I would not be happy unless the work was rectified and I don't mean stuffing some mortar in the gap.

Maybe, especially for an opinion on the lack of proper support of the brickwork.

1) Complaint to Anglian in writing and follow up with one phone call. If no promise of action in 7 days; 2) Call FENSA. This is the professional body for fenestration work, akin to CORGI (akin in the loosest possible way, but akin nonetheless). 3) Trading standards + local newspaper. Maybe Watchdog (is that still on) or Rogue Traders. Use these threats as appropriate to expediate 1 + 2 if they don't roll over immediately.

Can't promise a result, but it's what I'd do.

Include the whole lot in 1, 2 and 3 above.

Perhaps try uk.legal.moderated too.

Cheers

Tim

[mail]

Dear Mike It seems to me that you have a considerable number of legitimate complaints

I am no lawyer but on the basis you indemnify me for any loss by taking my free advice it is as follows

It is my suspicion that the original window which was probably wood acted as the support and that the replacement 20 years ago did the same If there is no lintel then they should have either said "Sorry we cannot proceeed until you put in a lintel" or put in a suitable replacement window. As the window is supposed to be a supporting one (I suspect) the one they HAVE put in is not fit for the purpose intended and you should reject it BUT ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT MY GUESS IS CORRECT Get in an engineer or surveyor and find out the facts That sort of failure mode is classic absent or broken lintel

Get a surveyor to state what DOES need doing and dont let them even try to con you with their opinion

Apart from looking crap if the mortar lines vary by up to

Probably right

Add this to your list of complaints of not being fit for purpose

No but I would stop worrying and get on with sorting them out!

or does it need major building

I would not call a lintel "major" work!

Yes on the basis of the facts presented

yes

Insist on the bricks being replaced to standard even if they have to cut out carefully and put them back to front or have some purpose made

Prior to this,

Wholly unaceptable Take photos asap for the record and the court case if need be

In some cases, there's a

Why not? you can cut them out and put in new ones or swap them round or take bricks out from somewhere not important and put them in place and where it is not in view put new matching ones Care with a suitable plugging chisel or masonry saw or even Fein Multimaster should enable this

Sure you could drill them out and find

See above

No

Insist on a replacement that is matching and made to measure

Insist on replacement of tiles to match even if it cost them an arm and a leg Go for the gonads

measure the verticals or check they have not put on rising butts or the like

This depends on what your mother ordered - she is the client not you so all this will have to be done by her or with you acting as her agent I cannot see recompence for artistic or aesthetic complaints

as it might well be useful to her would not argue this one particularly if she agreed to it

Guarantees are all worthless - find out the legal address from Company House if you are fussed

It is called the County Court Read up on how to sue them

Write a polite letter (no guns) stating you complaints Get estimates for fixing them Reject the window outright

Invite them to fix it and absent that within say 2 weeks tell them you will get someone elseto and sue them in the C court

Draft out a C court summons for the money to get it done and send them the draft summons and see what happens

If nothing get it done and if your Mum needs to borrow to do it charge interest as well

Make sure it is not a franchise and that they have assets first

Chris G

[Martin Pentreath]

This all sounds like good advice to me.

I'd just emphasise the importance of putting everything in writing, and in particular (as Chris says) explicitly rejecting the faulty window which they've fitted ASAP. I seem to recall that if you don't do this promptly then you will be deemed to have accepted it by acquiescing, which you certainly don't want to happen.

Very importantly, you need to establish immediately exactly which company the contract was with by looking carefully at the paperwork. I've no idea how Anglia works. It may be that your mother's contract was with Anglia itself (Anglia Windows plc, or whatever it may be called), and they subcontracted it to the local cowboys. That would be the best situation, because if push came to shove it will be Anglia you would sue and it will probably have assets and be worth suing. If it turns out that the contract was with Gaz & Darren (Cowboys) Ltd you may be on a hiding to nothing. They will be trading behind a limited company who's assets at best will be a beaten up van and half a dozen polythene windows minus a queue of other creditors. I would suggest once you have found out which company the contract was with you get onto the Companies House website and spend a tenner on a company search and have a butchers at their latest balance sheet to see whether they might be worth chasing. The search will also give you the address of their registered office, which is the address to which you should send all correspondence.

Cheers!

Martin

[meow2222]

Your initial legal threat should be for every penny you can justify or make them think a sympathetic court might award if youre lucky. And be sure to include all costs, including legal, and the surveyor/engineer drawing up of the works to be carried out. Everything, cost your time too, every detail.

The other point is that since this is a major chain, they stand to lose a lot more if you shout about it than they would through a court case, so you may find that your statement of being very peed off and inteending to post all this all voer the place might actually have more effect. Standing on the public pavement outside a branch telling potential customers whats going on is also a very effective way of motivating a company to address your complaints, can cost them a lot of business.

NT

PS this info is worth what you paid for it, - but do let us know if you get arrested ;)

[Invisible Man]

Seems like Anglian have not changed in 25 years despite their changes of ownership. The only thing that used to get them to do anything quickly was to hang out a huge sign for everyone to see and send a photo of it to them. Experts in taking out load bearing supports and replacing them with lightweight aluminium or PVCu. Get some props in quick.

[Steven Campbell]

Your initial legal threat should be for every penny you can justify or make them think a sympathetic court might award if youre lucky. And be sure to include all costs, including legal, and the surveyor/engineer drawing up of the works to be carried out. Everything, cost your time too, every detail.

The other point is that since this is a major chain, they stand to lose a lot more if you shout about it than they would through a court case, so you may find that your statement of being very peed off and inteending to post all this all voer the place might actually have more effect. Standing on the public pavement outside a branch telling potential customers whats going on is also a very effective way of motivating a company to address your complaints, can cost them a lot of business.

NT

PS this info is worth what you paid for it, - but do let us know if you get arrested ;)

******************************

I remember buying a car from a garage and was promised the earth before I parted with my cash. After finding numerous faults, the garage were very reluctant to repair them but done so out of the "goodness of their heart".

After this the car broke down 3 times all within the first week of buying it and the garage refused to repair it, basically told me to p*ss off!! I eventually got it going and went straight to the garage and parked over their drive and told them I wasn't moving until they at least acknowledged the problem. They refused and phoned the police. Police came and told me to roll the car forward 3 feet to clear their drive but I was more than welcome to stay and protest at their gates.

It only took their first prospective customer to appear and for me to tell them how I'd been treated for the garage to agree to sort my car, which turned out to be a mixture of immobiliser, batteries and alternator.

Steven.

[mike]

Thanks for all the advice so far, guys.

I just phoned the BCO. He said that as Anglian are FENSA registered they can self-certify and essentially tell you any old shit if you challenge them. However since this is a 12 foot span, 10 courses, 6mm gap he'll be out within the hour to see if they've created a dangerous structure.

I'll keep you posted.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Get a firm of structural engineers in and pay for a report.

Then engage a solicitor, and demand that they do the job properly under the aegis of the engineer, or pay you for all expenses and the cost of rectification.

[Tim S]

mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

Very wise. At least you'll know the extent of the situation soon.

It'll certainly give you some ammunition for no cost, and more importantly, you'll have an opinion quickly. I agree with other's opinions regarding rectification. Don't trust Anglian to fix it unless they're being supervised by someone you trust.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Cheers

Tim

[Andrew Gabriel]

Suggest you take some pictures too.

From the nearest internet cafe? ;-)

By the way, I would insist on the dropped section being rebuilt (using the original bricks, unless you can source identical ones). A large repointed triangle above a window, even if by chance it was deemed structurally sound, would certainly put me off such a house, and likely detract from the value. However, sounds like it's only hanging on by the wall ties. Any sign of the inner wall doing the same? The inner wall of a cavity will is usually the more structural of the two.

[Adrian]

Anglian did exactly the sae thing to my late parents' cerarwood bungalow down in Cornwall (probably about 10 years ago). They ripped out an 18ft long section of stout Mahogany window frames and fitted some dreadfully thin UPVC Patio doors. The roof-line sagged by up to 4 inches - which jammed the doors up solid.

It took over 9 months to get things sorted - with the local office of Anglian (which seemed to be no more than one man and a dog) pointing fingers at Head Office - and both of them trying to pass the blame off onto the other.

In the end, after a report from a qualified Structural Engineer, they came back and stuck an enormous metal 'I-beam' through the end of the bungalow, and tied the roof back up to it.

Complete nightmare from start to finish. Anglian's own 'surveyors' are simply salesmen - and don't have the first idea about anything to do with structural integrity....

Registered letter to Anglian Head Office - enclosing photographs, ideally with a big banner clearly visible from the road which says 'Anglian Windows wrecked this house!'

Don't start ot 'play friendly' with them - it'll only delay things. Start a website - mention Anglian Windows and their shoddy practices on every web-based forum you can find - generally make a noise.

Fensa are a complete waste of time - and have no interest in policing their own industry...

Sorry if all this sound a bit impassioned - but I'd hate for your Mum to have to go through the 9 months of grief and aggravation that my Mum & Dad suffered....

Good luck with sorting it out Adrian

[mike]

Update:

Building Inspector came out from the local council and said that although it was unlikely to fall down imminently, high winds or future frost damage could bring it down and that Anglian should have known it needed a lintel installed. Said the damage bricks could be drilled out, replaced with similar, specially painted to match existing weathered look.

Said that Fensa was essentially useless and only meant that the glass was toughened or whatever required by the regs, not that it was installed properly.

I called Anglian and told them about the BCO. They said a manger would call me back and arrange to visit with a builder to see what needed to be done.

I phoned consumer direct (the front end of Trading Standards these days) and they said to give 'em two weeks written notice to put the lintel right quoting Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. They also said the fact that they'd damaged dozen of bricks around all the windows was basically tough shit -- maybe they could replace a few of the worst bricks but if I object to it looking cosmetically crap, I'd have to go to court and let a judge decide, which I think is pretty appalling.

Most importantly they said I couldn't get any one else in to rectify it -- I have to let the monkeyboys have a go first. Is that true??

Then Anglian phoned back and said they were sending just the bloke in charge of conservatories (?!!) to have a look at it and see if anything needed doing. Clearly don't believe the BCO and not concerned that 82 falling bricks might damage someone or something.

So I have to trek over there again tomorrow (100 mile round trip) but I'll come back armed with photos.

[Tim S]

mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

As I may have mentioned, uk.legal.moderated --->

You will get the same calibre of legal opinion there as you do DIY here :)

Glad the BCO was unambiguous.

[Colin Wilson]

Make sure they know this, and that you will be submitting a claim for expenses.

How old is your mum ? - you could get her to sign the new equivalent of an enduring power of attorney, which would allow you to sort out her affairs for her (sadly the new system is messier and more expensive than the one it replaced)

[Dave Liquorice]

BTDTGTTS. But at least our installation was just shoddy workmanship rather than anything seriously structural, every window had a good dozen or so faults. The worst was the lack of maintaining the vertical DPM of the tile hung walls and bunging silicone into the slot the cut right through the lead flashing when sawing out the old timber frames.

The local offices are franchises for sales men. The will try and bounce it to head office who don't care a flying fig and bounce you back to the franchise.

That may prejudice any court proceedings but certainly don't "play friendly". Be firm, polite, and 110% resolute on what you want them to do to correct the problem(s) in a "reasonable" time scale. Say having an independent structural survey within 7 days and all remedial work completed and signed off to the structural engineers and your satisfaction with in 28 days.

Set deadlines at the beginning, if (when...) they fail to meet them don't faff about, tell them they have failed and you are going to get someone else in to do the work(*) and that you will be taking them to court for

*all* the costs involved. So keep records of dates/times duration of phone calls, letters written, postage (use Signed For so they can't deny having received anything), trips to the franchise everything.

He'll need it. Anglian biggest double glazing company in the UK they are also THE biggest bunch of cowboys as well. IMHO they are the ones that bring down the reputation of the industry. There are many decent local DG companies that do a good job, at a good price(*2).

(*1) Get 3 quotes and choose with your engineer which is the best it may not be the cheapest or most expensive but justify the choice.

(*2) Beware of Anglians high pressure selling "I must ring the boss (on your phone...) to get authorisation for this unprecedented 65% discount, but it will only be available if you sign now". Even with the "unprecedented 65% discount" the prices is still more than the local company...

[mike]

Yup, posted and awaiting moderator approval.

[mike]

Strangely enough, I threatened to do this once.

Bought a video camera from Dixons many years ago. It failed a few weeks later. Took it back.

Dixons: The manager's not here. We can't do anything. Me: Well, who's in charge if the shop catches fire? Dixons: I am. Me: Well, what are YOU going to do? Dixons: I can't do anything the manager's not here. Me: OK, I'm going to go and stand outside your door and tell everyone who walks past that Dixons are a bunch of liars and thieves.

Two minutes later I had a new (upgraded) camera. And I've never traded with Dixons since.

[Chris J Dixon]

Whilst in no way wanting to condone shoddy work, it would be interesting to know what the small print of the original contract stated.

IIRC many years ago when I had some windows replaced, there was an explicit note to the effect that if the property was depending upon the existing windows for structural support, then their removal was at the owner's risk. Whether those would today be considered unfair contract terms is certainly arguable.

Chris

[The Natural Philosopher]

I suspect so: IIRC (IANAL) there is a bit of law that says that what counts is what one could reasonably expect: Houses falling down after window replacement might be what anyone with experience of Anglia might reasonably expect, but this probably wouldn't cut much ice with a judge, or indeed Anglia.

"Anglia uses defense that shoddy workmanship is what one reasoanbly expects from them"

Er..yes..

Final point: get media exposure. Nothing moves a bunch of bean counters and salesmen faster than media exposure.