Is planning control normally involved in the replacement of a boiler? Sorry, long post.

[Nick]

Good evening to all,

my mum's oil fired boiler needs renewing. She is elderly and registered blind. I live 4 hours travel away. Gas is not available where she lives. I will be paying the costs for the new installation and thus would like to be kept informed. Existing 15yo boiler is 50K btu and, frankly, on its last legs. A locally recommended heating engineer has been invited to quote. I find his statements bewildering and he refuses to speak with me. Please excuse me, this may be long, but I (no spring chicken) am struggling to understand:

15.02.2010 "The non condensing boiler made by Grant is a 50/70 which is big enough to do your mother's properties at XXXX which is quite lucky because they only make a 50/70 at present in non condensing as they are not so popular any more and thats why they only make them to order. To remove the existing oil boiler and install a new Grant 50/70 non condensing with a flue connection from the top to the existing flue, a Megaclean, copper tube, fittings, replace thermostatic radiator valves as your mother said that some of them do not work properly, refix some of the plumbing pipework that goes to certain radiators that have broken away from their existing fittings.. Refill adding a full treatment, commission. This would be for the sum of £xxxx.xx plus V.A.T. The reason I havent quoted for a new flue is because after the boiler has been removed we would need to take the top of the existing flue and have a good look at it. If it is a case we need to refix it and brush it clean then this can be done under the same price as above. The SW double insulation s/steel flue which is similar to that at present is very expensive and if it has to be replaced you would be looking around £xxx.xx plus V.A.T. It takes approx 4 weeks to make the boiler and then it gets transported down here so you are looking approx 5 weeks. If you are happy with the above quote we require a letter of confirmation that you accept the quote but if you could let me know by email then I will get it ordered so that we can get your mother sorted due to our workload is extensive."

15.02.2010 "Answers to questions. Yes the boiler is big enough and you want it to work just under full volume i.e. 65,000 btus, that is why we went round with your mother so that we could measure each radiator. Bigger boiler will keep recycling costing more oil, more wear and tear on boiler. Megaclean. We fit them on every boiler installation we do they are absolutely top end, weather its oil, gas or LPG. It helps keep the system running clean, I don't know where you got your information from but that is total crap, ring British Gas for their opinion! Full treatment means we flush the system, guess what? We use a large Megaclean flushing system and then we back fill adding a full Sentinal treatment. I do apologise for calling it SW flue as that is its correct name but it is the same flue as is there at present but as I said it is expensive thats why we were trying to save a bit of money if it passes perhaps I should not have thought of the customer! All our work is ALWAYS done correct to the Regulations and registered with Oftec for Building Regulations Certificate, I really don't know what kind of shit you turn out! We only supply appliances we don't make them, if they say a time period that is all I can go on and I know your mother is elderly but we do a vast amount of work for people who are elderly, but unfortunately there is times when they have just got to hang in there. As for our service and maintenance, locally its known as second to none as well as our after sales service! When xxxx called me his wife was putting the casing back on your mother's boiler because the 1st man they used when the boiler was giving trouble didn't bother to turn up, he was good wasn't he? The 2nd man he turned up buggered about, left off all the casing, said you need a new boiler, I will come back sometime and see if I can get it running, never seen him again! Mum does need her creature comforts, I met your brother he was desperate to find somebody who was relieable, I said I can get it running but only use it for small periods, not all day, we must change this appliance, if you push it too hard it could break down, keep a tight eye on it. All our work meets all Regulations, our service and maintenace, we even repair boilers late into the evening, thats why I was well recommended from xxxx because of my reputation. All I will say is you have got a lovely mother, you can't have everything! Now I would suggest you start ringing now throw your hook."

20.02.2010. "I appreciate that your mother has already spoken to you by now but yesterday we changed direction due to the local authorities and Grant moving the goal posts. The authorities want at least 10 days before meeting and completing my application and Grant told me it would be 3/4 weeks to make the boiler, they now inform me it could be 6/7 weeks so I waved goodbye with a local gesture, made a couple of phone calls and contacted your mother and explained the situation, she is now going to have a condensing boiler, a full up-date system, new flue, without too much upset. She was hightly delighted, we have asked 2 of our customers if they would accept a delay on their work, no problem there, so we will start work at your mother's approx 2 or 3rd March. The above work will be done within the same price structure as the 2 quoted prices you have already been sent on behalf of your mother. Any other information I will pass on to your mother." 20.02.2010. "The Planning Control Officer is an office that we go to if you are going to fit a standard efficiency boiler and it works on a points system, as you tick the boxes on my form if you don't go over a thousand points the installation can be installed. In early 2006 when I did a standard installation I had an appointment with the office, showed them my form, told them all about the premises, discussed it in full and had permission, 20 mins max. I returned with the same idea and its all changed. Now I have to write an application form in for an appointment, then we have to meet on site, then we discuss it on site then we pass it, all this takes approx and I do say that loosely 10 days! Plus a fee so we couldn't order the boiler until after that period and then we got Grants time, out of the question or I said words very similar. This is a lady that needs urgent attention, you just as well talk to the wall! Thats why I rang your mother and explained we will go for the new system, it will be kept within the quote."

The above is verbatim except for some personal details. I hope it gives some idea of the dilemma I am in, and my thanks in advance for any sensible replies or advice.

Nick.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It all sounds reasonable frankly. Planning office is not involved, but building control is. Which sounds like what he is talking about. No 'material alteration' to a property can be done without bringing the bit altered up to specs. He is right about not oversizing the boiler too.

The key thing is whether he can do the job, and what the price is. Sounds like 3-4k total if he is going to do what he says.

Remember every hour he spends writing a letter is 30-60 quid he isn't making on doing actual work.

Not sure if he is getting a government grant..that may mean jumping through some extra hoops.

Frankly every time I have been near a government grant, the cost of hoop jumping exceeded the grant value...

[Owain]

Well, that's nice.

Perhaps to be charitable he misunderstood your or your mother's requirements at the outset or was not aware that you were a reader of this fine group and thus rather better informed than the general populace?

Or maybe he's a numpty.

Owain

[Usenet Nutter]

Long Post Snipped

Is all the bit you wrote with dates from letters the fitter sent you or transcript of phone calls . as there are parts that totally confuse me ..Thought you said he refused to speak to you ? If that's the case I'd be inclined to go somewhere else

[Peter Parry]

He is talking about the recent changes in Part L (I think) of the Building Regulations which have a minimum efficiency requirement for central heating boilers.

Non-condensing boilers cannot meet this requirement so effectively cannot be used in new installations or as replacements in old. However, they can still be approved on a case by case basis for replacement installations where a condensing boiler would be impractical. The decision is made based upon a "point score" system which is what he is referring to here.

[Huge]

Sack him and find one who understands who the customer is.

[Alan]

Reading between the lines, there are times when it's better not to take on a job.

[cynic]

SNIP

First of all IS the boiler on its last legs or would a competent service engineer bring it up to original standard (subject to cosmetic finish) At 15 years it could be good for a lot more years or it could need replacing tomorrow. Grant build the boiler (box full of water) and fit a standard burner to it. If the boiler itself is sound I would be inclined to stick with it for the time being. IF it is showing signs of leakage then its in need of replacement. What model of burner is fitted to it? If you have a Riello it will be entirely repairable for some time to come. Other makes may be a different story but S/H burners can be obtained cheaply by anyone in the trade who has replaced boilers in the past. Grant used steel plate bafles in some of their models. Its not rocket science to have replacements cut locally if these are heat damaged. Maybe you can give more info about what on its last legs really means?

[robgraham]

I would back up what Cynic has just said. I have a well over 15yr old oil boiler and while some of it has minor cosmetic deterioration, it is *working* fine and I do have good oil-burner-aware heating technician who looks after it. The flame box is the only thing that has given bother and it looks simple enough to be rebuilt if needs be.

I am glad of the comment about Riello burners !

Rob

[Hugo Nebula]

Charming!

Me think he doth protest too much. I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote that goes something like, "when a politician tells me how honest he is, I check my wallet".

I'm not sure what 'authorities' he's talking about, but if it's Building Control, then bollox. A Building Regulations application takes two days MAX from _him_ completing it to a surveyor calling out.

I presume he means Building Control. He's said he's 'registered with OFTEC', so why does he want to involve Building Control? He can self-certify his own work.

There was a 'get-out' at the time the requirements changed for oil-fired boilers fitted before April 2007. The form required the answer to one question, "is this an oil-fired boiler?" If yes, approved. And that took him 20 minutes?

One wonders if he's so knowledgable if he hasn't fitted a non-condensing boiler between then and now.

Bollox. See above.

No disrespect, but we are getting one side of the conversation. Nevertheless, I have had a bad experience with a CH installer who knew what was best for my mother (a bottom of the range CH boiler with inadequate controls for a top of the range price).

[Tim Watts]

Hugo Nebula wibbled on Wednesday 24 February 2010 22:04

Hope you had some "fun" with him and made his life miserable...

Reminds me of a mate's brother who had a builder in to do some work. Builder bodged it, brother had a go, builder said it was fine.

Later on, when brother went to another room, the builder was boasting with the tenants about how he took as many cash payments as possible to avoid VAT. Tenants fell about laughing. Builder asked why? Tenants said "Well, our Landlord, that guy you've just pissed off. He's a VAT inspector for C&E..."

Builder went very quiet, fixed all the work properly then scuttled off...