Installing a woodburner

[puffernutter]

I live in an 1890 Victorian terrace. The dining room has a wood burner wit h back boiler (and a stainless steel flue) that provides our central heatin g needs. The front room has an open fireplace with a open gas fire (with t hose heat resistant blocks) that we haven't used for many years.

I plan to get the gas fire removed by a certified gas engineer.

I have a second wood burner that I should like to install in that fireplace . I have been quoted over £800 to have a flue installed.

I can fit a plate (with a hole for the fire flue) to seal off the brick flu e and I can perform a smoke test. Assuming the smoke test is OK, do I have to fit a liner, or can I just install the wood burner? Do I have to get a HETAS engineer involved, if not, do Building Control have to be informed?

Very simply, what do I HAVE to do to meet any building regulations, laws et c.?

Cheers

Peter

[stuart noble]

I think it's assumed a property of that age is likely to need a flue, and they are hellishly expensive for some reason. I suppose if a chimney sweep does the test and gives you the ok, you could go ahead without the flue. That's what happened with the open fire in my son's house, but that's 30s built.

[Davey]

The Certified Gas Engineer who removes the existing fire should know. As far as I know myself, having decided not to pay the massive costs of installing a new flue for my thatched property, the problem is the high temperatures created in the flue of a wood-burning stove, much higher than those of a wood fire, and which are more likely to set fire to roof timbers. Consider this: You don't install a flue liner, and do install the burner. The house then catches fire, even if it has nothing to do with the wood burner (say, a faulty electrical connection). Your insurance company will instantly check for the flue liner, and certificate, as soon as it sees the burner, and if it doesn't find them, will invalidate your cover.

Just my opinion.

[Tim Streater]

Don't think BC need be involved. But if you don't have a proper flue and have it insulated with such as vermiculite, then AIUI your flue won't get hot enough to prevent tar buildup.

[Dave Liquorice]

Look at the relevant building regs that are online in the "planning portal"? Google will find 'em...

I don't think a liner is an absolute must but you'd have to be pretty sure that the chimney is sound and stays that way. Woodburners flue gases are also hotter and not diluted with air like those from an open fire. There may be longer term problems due to tar condensation in a relatively cold and high thermal mass chimney.

[fred]

In article , Davey writes

Why would a gas installer know the requirements for a woodburner?

You're talking out of your arse.

And exceptionally badly informed.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 01 February 2014 12:09 puffernutter wrote in uk.d-i-y:

You could just get the gas disconnected and capped. Then remove the fire yourself.

Sounds about right - *most* of that is the liner.

That depends on lots of things - condition of existing flue, cross sectional area vs the stove manufacturer's requirements of the same (this should be in the installer handbook for the stove, often downloadable online).

Yes or yes respectively.

In short:

1) Combustion - meet the requirements for combustable materials being the required distance from the stove and anything connected with the hearth area WRT to rest of the floor (eg carpets). 2) Flue; 3) Ventilation - possibly you may need a vent in that room.

The installer's handbook for the stove sometimes summarises the requirements or a common subset of them.

Otherwise, flick through the building regulations Approved Documents online (google).

Personally, I would:

Get the gas fitter to cap the gas off;

Remove fire myself and make good the hearth and fire opening.

Ring up the nearest HETAS fitter as I think you'll pay around £200-300 over the parts for the actual labour and he gets to clamber on the roof, bugger about swearing at fittings and bends in the flue and best of all, you get a nice shiney certificate at the end to keep your insurers happy :)

In otherwords, do all the prep and sub out the really fiddly bit :)

You can take his advice before hand on whether the room needs a vent and do that yourself like I did too. But have it done before he installs everything or else he may not be able to sign off.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 01 February 2014 13:11 Tim Streater wrote in uk.d-i-y:

They do unless a HETAS bloke certifies the work.

[Huge]

So you think people should gamble with their largest asset on the basis of some anonymous wanker (in case of any doubt, that's you) on Usenet, do you?

[Another Dave]

I'm not an expert but when I moved into my current house 6 years ago it had a wood-burning stove but no flue liner.

It was a disaster.

Obviously the chimney was in no fit state and tar stains and condensation damp ruined the upstairs decorations, plaster and carpet and the top of the corresponding downstairs wall doesn't bear looking at.

I've had a flue liner and vermiculite insulation installed (cost: £900) and the situation is vastly improved, although it's only 5 months ago and the walls haven't quite dried out.

None of this may apply in your case but it's a cautionary tale.

Another Dave

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 01 February 2014 15:28 Another Dave wrote in uk.d-i-y:

*If* that should ever come back, here's my dad's solution (from an oil- boiler flue that caused similar):

Cut plaster off the affected area back to brick. Sock out any tar with tissue paper soaked in sugar soap - repeat over a week, leaving tissue paper stuck to brick until dry. That draws some out.

Render with a 3:1 sand cement mix as the plaster "undercoat". It's less permeable than plaster.

Seal that (he didn't, I would)

Skim plaster.

There may be more modern ways, but his way worked. Hopefully you will not need to as it is no longer wet - or some surface sealer might be enough (SBR might work here).

[Another Dave]

Thanks. I'm hoping it won't come to that.

Another Dave

[fred]

Charmed I'm sure hunney.

It's not a gamble to suggest that people treat unsubstantiated claims about the insurance industry with caution.

Something like, "we're sorry that your house burned down, the fire service have told us that the likely cause was an unattended chip pan in the kitchen, but we are unable to pay your claim because we found that a

100W bulb in the bedroom was missing a CE mark" would be obvious bollocks but no more or less credible than the poster's assertion on wiring fires and flues.

You may note that I made no suggestion about the wisdom or otherwise of installing an appropriate flue. Personally I would view it as foolish not to install a twinwall insulated flue in the circumstances described but the purpose of my post was to put on record a warning not to accept unqualified advice from a gas installer and to dispute inaccurate remarks about insurance, nothing else.

That done, future readers can draw their own conclusions..

HTH

[harryagain]

I plan to get the gas fire removed by a certified gas engineer.

I have a second wood burner that I should like to install in that fireplace. I have been quoted over 800 to have a flue installed.

I can fit a plate (with a hole for the fire flue) to seal off the brick flue and I can perform a smoke test. Assuming the smoke test is OK, do I have to fit a liner, or can I just install the wood burner? Do I have to get a HETAS engineer involved, if not, do Building Control have to be informed?

Very simply, what do I HAVE to do to meet any building regulations, laws etc.?

Cheers

Peter

You need the flue liner. It helps prevent tar buildup. Theremay be leaks/bad joints in the brickwork that could leak CO into the house. It helps the stove run more efficently.

It's quite normal for the flue to cost s much/more as the stove/woodburner. I demolished my existing chimney and installed a freestanding Selkirk Metalbestos chimney.

Also, think about getting a room sealed stove. You don't need to have combustion air coming into the room.

And you need a CO detector/alarm.

[Calvin]

ith back boiler (and a stainless steel flue) that provides our central heat ing needs. The front room has an open fireplace with a open gas fire (with those heat resistant blocks) that we haven't used for many years.

ce. I have been quoted over £800 to have a flue installed.

lue and I can perform a smoke test. Assuming the smoke test is OK, do I ha ve to fit a liner, or can I just install the wood burner? Do I have to get a HETAS engineer involved, if not, do Building Control have to be informed?

Have a look at this website:

I have no affiliation except that I'm considering installing a stove and th is was a helpful source of info.

[Martin Bonner]

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 2:52:58 PM UTC, Tim Watts wrote: [lots of very sensible stuff]

[Peter Crosland]

You don't have to but you need to consider the possible consequences if you don't. These include, in no particular order, the fact that it might invalidate your insurance and make the property impossible to sell in future until the job is done properly. The safety aspect should be obvious. Wood burners generate a lot of heat so the correct flue really is essential. Common sense should tell you that you need to bite the bullet an get the flue professionally installed.

[Davey]

Since I am not the only one to make a similar warning, I think that readers can indeed make their own conclusions. It's not a risk worth taking, in my view. I have had an insurer try to not pay up for water damage because 'the water was of the wrong type', ie it came from melting snow, not under the door, so don't tell me that they don't try to wriggle put out of paying claims. And a qualified Gas Installer should know a lot about all aspects of Heating systems. He will probably have a HETAS certificate. The one we had in to estimate for our aborted wood burning stove installation did.

[fred]

In article , Davey writes

And that is the beauty of usenet, your unfettered right to reply.

However, when you say, "will invalidate your cover" as if it is fact in the given context when it not, expect a robust correction from me.

[Davey]

Ok, I'll modify it:

"Could be used to invalidate your cover".

Better?