Installing a new boiler - outside?

[Lobster]

I'll be getting a new combi boiler installed in the near future... favoured site for this is currently in the kitchen (it's replacing an immersion heater + electric storage heater combo, so is a 'from-scratch' installation).

Got to thinking though... the kitchen backs on to a small brick-built outhouse - former scullery, toilet or something - and I was wondering about the desirability of fitting it in there instead. It would be just as easy to install there, and would gain me valuable kitchen space; the downside of course being the enhanced risk of things freezing up in winter.

How easy and reliable is it to protect against freezing up, if everything's properly lagged and has a frost stat?

Would the system overall work less well in winter by virtue of the boiler being in a cold environment?

Would it be less economical than having it indoors?

Would it be likely to put off any future purchasers of the house (that's you!)?

Thanks for your input... David

[Doctor Evil]

Sounds ideal Most combi's have integral frost protection these days. Any pipes in there have well insulated with thick pipe insulation. Make sure the door is a very tight fit to prevent any cold getting in. Draft proof the door, etc.

It would not put off future purchases, probably the opposite. Have the room painted white and a bright light in there, to make it look professional. I fitted a combi in such a room for a friend. It also has stacked washing machine/tumble dryer too. A few shelves with all the washing liquid on. A great use of otherwise wasted space making greater space in the kitchen.

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[Dave Plowman (News)]

Next door did just this - stripped out the outside loo and use it as a boiler house/ garden tool store.

Can't answer any of those for sure, but they didn't mention any problems.

Well, next door has just been sold, and the workmen are in. Woodworm treatment etc, so must have been bought on a mortgage which it wasn't last time. And there's all sorts of noises coming from the outside loo and I noticed a plumber's van outside. Could just be a service, of course. Haven't seen the new people yet as I doubt they'll move in with the timber treatment smells, so perhaps I'll ask the plumber if he's back tomorrow.

[andrewpreece]

I have done this, put the combi in the old outside loo, by far the best decision I could have made ( it was in a bedroom - a real putter-offer ). Before it was in the bedroom it was on the kitchen wall, effectively denying me wall unit space in a small kitchen. As a bonus, the boiler effectively takes up no space in the outside loo, since I found it possible to install a toilet, slimline cistern, and a small handbasin to one side with no interference with the boiler ( have to get the pipes running right though ). You don't bang your head on the boiler when you use the loo, even though it's 6" above your head, because you naturally rotate forward to get up. Even more of a plus, the boiler takes the chill off the loo, effectively it's a small output radiator. The disadvantages are that you need to run services through the cavity wall ( no big deal mind ). Bear in mind the rules relating to the position of your flue. Obeying them to the letter there was only one exact position on the side wall the flue could go, no leeway at all, unless I went through the slate roof. I don't believe there is any impact on the economy of the combi having it in he o/s loo, and as I said, the combi actually keeps the o/s loo reasonably comfortable so no frost risk. I put brush seals top and bottom on my braced abd ledged door to keep the spiders out and the warmth in.

Andy.

[chris French]

In message , andrewpreece writes

and as I said, the combi actually keeps the o/s loo reasonably comfortable

I think I'd want to have frost stat in the outhouse that would fire up the boiler if the temp got too low and there was a risk of freezing.

[andrewpreece]

comfortable

True, depends on things though - my Vaillant has a built-in frost-stat. Anyway, being in Devon I cannot imagine getting a frost severe enough to depress the o/s loo temp below zero, when it has a warm combi + pipes in it.

Andy.

[Lobster]

Thanks for all the replies - sounds encouraging.

I suppose my main reservation is that if you have a boiler in the outhouse, during winter the temperature of the outhouse is always going to be lower than the main house. In winter, when the heating's off overnight, even when it's a few degrees below outside, the house is likely to retain enough heat for the frost stat on a kitchen boiler not to need to kick in at all. However, its counterpart in the outhouse, which here 'oop North' will certainly freeze, is surely likely to be switchig itself on and off all night, isn't it?

David

[andrewpreece]

I can't argue with your observation, but can't see why a frost-stat kicking the boiler in once every-half hour, most probably not until near dawn, only in the coldest weather, is going to matter. You can't hear the boiler when you're in bed and the cost can only be pennies.

My outside loo + combi has a temperature of 23C tonight ( coincidentally almost exactly the same as the indoor temperature of 22C ), with an outside air temp of 11C ( stillish night ). The combi isn't working hard since it's a mild night, it would have to work twice as hard with an outside temperature of 0C, and so I reckon unless it gets well below freezing, the temperature in my o/s loo is going to be about

23C in still weather whatever the air temperature, whilst the combi is running the CH. In still weather then, as long as the combi can maintain the house temperature at 22C the o/s loo will have a similar temperature. That's a long way for it to cool down before the frost-stat needs to kick in,. even with only a single brick skin

I've made a few extrapolations there, and the situation would be worse if there was a wind up ( speeds up heat loss from the loo ), but I can't see the frost-stat operating on more than an occasional basis - and that's what it's there for anyway1

Andy.

[adder1969]

Does one have to antifreeze in an outside loo in winter?

[Andrew Gabriel]

I recall leaving one outside after a bathroom refit. When it froze, the U-trap dropped out the bottom, cracking quite neatly around the water line. It may be that older loos which were designed for outdoor use had a trap shape which would prevent this happening.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

My original - complete with Thomas T - has the pan made in two pieces jointed above the U bend and bedded in something like putty. It's managed over 100 winters.

[Lobster]

Thanks for the comments on the above. Reckon I'm going to go ahead with this, unless my CORGI kicks off about the idea for some reason!

This has thrown up another query, though. Siting of the boiler in the outhouse will mean that it's flue would emerge very close to the outhouse window - if this were the kitchen window, I know it would definitely be too close for the regs. But does this count for an outhouse too? Bearing in mind that by the time I've finished, this will be quite smart (as somebody suggested, it will have lights and power, a nice paint job, maybe a worktop - basically an 'outside' utility area. However, it will only have one door, to the outside; no CH, and is built of just single-skin brick (no plaster etc inside). Will that be OK? If not it would mean putting the flue up through the roof which I'd rather avoid.

Thanks David

[Doctor Evil]

Check the makers info on flue siting. Generally a window is a window. Not quite sure about if it is sealed and cannot be opened. How about bricking it up.

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[Lobster]

Well, haven't actually picked a boiler yet; am still at drawing board stage on this. No doubt I'll be back here for advice on the selection! With April around the corner it'll have to be a condenser job now, won't it?

Anyway, the flue would have to be within about 12" of the window, which I'm sure will be too close whatever model of boiler, if as you say, 'a window is a window' :-( Wouldn't want to brick it up - want natural light in there - and would rather not convert to a fixed window, although I suppose that's an option if it was a kosher solution.

Thanks David

[Doctor Evil]

Some can go about 12" (300mm) to the side of a window. Check with the boiler makers. Some insutructions are downloadable. Worth downloading a few to read.

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[Mike]

Is it a fixed or opening window ? If fixed it should be okay but you'll need to ask your BCO nicely. If opening he will probably want it fixed.

[andrewpreece]

You can get to within 30cm of a window - my outhouse is tiny, only room for your basic crapper, a microsink and a tiny window ( and the combi up on the wall above the loo of course ), and I managed OK, but like I said the flue met all requirements in one exact position only, and I needed to order two 90degree bends to manouevre it to that position.

Read up on the flue siting restrictions, the info is easily available, there are about a dozen restrictions, distance from window, eaves, internal corner, other terminals, from ground, from opening in carport, from gutters, from adjacent propety etc.

Andy.

[patrick j]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:37:09 +0000, Lobster wrote (in message ):

If you bricked up the window perhaps you could put a glass pane in the door thus creating a source of natural light?

Just a thought :)