Idiot proof CH contrler?

[Dave Fawthrop]

I am sort of involved with an absolutely crap, four years old, single channel CH controller, a Gras???, plugged into a back plate. It is working a Combi boiler in an area used by many groups at different times. so it needs different setting for each day, and often needs switching on for special occasions. The method of setting it is absolutely counter intuitive, and I was the only person able to get it set, while mumbling imprecations against the programmers of the internal computer. Unfortunately others tried to set it and it gets into a complete mess.

Does anyone know of an idiot proof CH controller which can be set by anybody, and will not get into a mess. Maybe one where I can hide a program from others.

I have tried notices, but *nobody* reads notices, and many users have are recent immigrants, and do not have a good grasp of English :-(

[Jonathan Pearson]

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:30:09 +0100 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop wrote this:-

1) Get a seven day programmer fitted, one which needs a key for programming. 2) Have one or two people trained to operate it, which they do once a week. 3) Show the groups concerned how to get an extra hour of heating by pressing the appropriate button (which doesn't need a key to press). 4) Enjoy the reduced level of complaints.

We did this in a hall looked after by the family 25 odd years ago.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I guess I have built a couple of such a systems. Your requirements were not what I had in mind, but it would probably meet them. A computer controls the whole building, lighting, heating, alarm, etc. The heating control is governed by occupancy, timer control, and a single accessible button which can be used to toggle it on and off (or at least, to ask the computer to do so, which it can choose to ignore). There are what look like standard room stats, but are actually a separate digital thermometer to measure room temperature and potentiometer to indicate desired room temperature, both of which are monitored by the computer, and used as one of many inputs to decide if heating is required or not. Computer can be told to set to fixed room temperature or to use the room stats at different times.

The heating's timer control can consist of regular on/off times (the sort of thing you can setup with 'cron' on unix), moderated by occupancy and time of year if required. It can also be set for one-shot events (the sort of thing you can setup with 'at' on unix), or for immediate on or off. It can all be done remotely over the internet, which means you don't have to visit the building an hour or two in advance if you got a last minute booking.

Before you ask, no I'm not selling this system! Parts of it are still under development and the computer-based user interface is still very deficient. I've not looked, but I would have thought that something like this would be available for commercial premises, even though it's not really caught on for home use.

[Lurch]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:30:09 +0100, Dave Fawthrop mused:

What I usually try to do on jobs like this is to hide the programmer and just have a button on the wall, retractive switch usually, connected to a time delay relay or similar to bring the heating on for a set period.

You could also use a economy 7 immersion timer as it has the boost facility. It's obviously limited to one on-off period though so may not be suitable.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Andrew Gabriel writes

Sad story....

Long time ago but.

Consider, what was said at the time to be the largest re-locatable building in the UK. Gas fired heating from central boiler with wet radiator system. Morning after first heat trial, two radiators lying on the floor. Much head scratching and then the realisation that they were at the end of a very long pipe run and expansion had forced the fixings out of the wall. Lots of glass and interesting solar gain issues so rad stats fitted. Building occupied and then the real problems began.

You would think that employees capable of specifying and marketing manufactured products would have the wit to realise that a rad stat wound to the off setting on a warm sunny mid morning would not magically turn back on for the pre-occupation warm up next day.

Complaints flowed and the last I heard, boiler house staff were locking the valves.

Shouldn't be sexist but who also has a wife who adjusts the central thermostat in the firm belief that the house will then warm up more quickly!

regards

>

[Roger Mills]

You'd have a job to go wrong with one of these . .

[Owain]

Do you have to have a program, or is the heating responsive enough[1] and the building well insulated enough that you could leave the heating on continuously on a set-back temperature and only have it come up to temperature when the hall is in use?

Elkay 900 is a programmable thermostat with touch activated boost. Setback temp 5-19degC. Boost 16-25degC. Boost timer variable up to 2 hours.

User instructions: "press button for heat". Pictogram: finger pressing button -> warmth from radiator.

Elkay 910 is the same thing but activated by a PIR instead of a touchpad.

Both require a neutral, and will switch 7A.

- Energy Management. They are very good at sending brochures.

Owain

[1] Adding some fan-assisted ('Myson') radiators would help. Also if soemone unlocks the hall half an hour before people arrive, to put out chairs etc.

[Dave Fawthrop]

|!Dave Fawthrop wrote: |!> I am sort of involved with an absolutely crap, four years old, single |!> channel CH controller, a Gras???, plugged into a back plate. It is working |!> a Combi boiler in an area used by many groups at different times. so it |!> needs different setting for each day, and often needs switching on for |!> special occasions. |! |!Do you have to have a program, or is the heating responsive enough[1] |!and the building well insulated enough that you could leave the heating |!on continuously on a set-back temperature and only have it come up to |!temperature when the hall is in use?

I have *no* control over the building itself which is the basement of a 150 year old ex-methodist church. The insulation is poor, being mainly 2 ft thick stone walls.

|!Elkay 900 is a programmable thermostat with touch activated boost. |!Setback temp 5-19degC. Boost 16-25degC. Boost timer variable up to 2 hours. |! |!User instructions: "press button for heat". Pictogram: finger pressing |!button -> warmth from radiator. |! |!Elkay 910 is the same thing but activated by a PIR instead of a touchpad. |! |!Both require a neutral, and will switch 7A. |! |!

- Energy Management. They are very good at sending |!brochures.

I'll look at that.

|![1] Adding some fan-assisted ('Myson') radiators would help. Also if |!soemone unlocks the hall half an hour before people arrive, to put out |!chairs etc.

No chance of changing anything, except the control.

[Peter Andrews]

In 'my' Guide Hall occupied at various times by Senior Citizens Lunch Club, Keep Fit, Dance Groups and, of course, Guides and Brownies I have a cover screwed over the controller. Timer sets heating on at 09:00 and off at

22:30, users only control is the thermostat that we ask them to set to down to 15C when leaving the hall, only occasionally does anyone forget. However I could do without the TRV's, but since they are turned to max don't have any effect, but why did we have to have them when the rads are all in the same hall! All things considered it has worked very well over the past three years and reasonable running costs.

Peter

>

[Mathew Newton]

Do what my mates Dad supposedly did with his mechanical stat...

Pulled the knob off, removed the metal insert that locates against the shaft chamfer, replaced knob.

Now when wife tweaks the heating up a tad nothing actually happens. Yet I bet she probably feels warmer as a result..! ;-)

Mathew

[Cicero]

=============================== You don't need any controller as such if you can rely on your users to switch the heating on and off at appropriate times. A simple on / off switch used in conjunction with a tamper-proof room thermostat will do the job quite well if you can educate your users to switch off when their session is finished. They'll probably manage to switch on if it's cold enough.

Cic.

[Owain]

I think that's probably all the more reason to have a set-back temperature, especially if the building use is intermittent, otherwise it will take just too long to get up from cold to ever be warm. That may be part of the problem with the existing system.

Owain

[Lurch]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:14:04 +0100, Lurch mused:

Thinking about this further, as my memory catches up with me, time lag switches or occupancy detectors would be another solution.

[Roger Mills]

There's obviously a market there for time *lead* switches which switch the heating on a set time *before* the bodies arrive!

[Dave Fawthrop]

|!In an earlier contribution to this discussion, |!Lurch wrote: |! |!>

|!> Thinking about this further, as my memory catches up with me, time lag |!> switches or occupancy detectors would be another solution. |! |!There's obviously a market there for time *lead* switches which switch the |!heating on a set time *before* the bodies arrive!

Especially in places with massive cold walls.

[Bob Eager]

Sounds like another product for the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation...

[Ron Lowe]

Go stick your head in a pig !