I wonder if British Standards could go the same way...?

[Phil]

[Tony Bryer]

so much freely available: I used to spend loads of money on Building Regulations documents of one sort or another. Indeed I missed the fact that the new Part L Heating Compliance Guide is available as a free download and paid ££ for my copy.

It would certainly be nice if BSs were done of the same basis: they cost serious money even if you are a BSI member like us and can buy them at half price, because the publication sales have to finance all the research and committee expenses.

I think though that it is a slightly different issue with things like OS mapping where the user is making direct commercial use of it.

[robert]

It used to annoy me that HSE charged for many of their publications - seemd to be contrary to the whole ethos of having a HSE.

Although Building Regs are now downlaodable they often refer to BS standards which arent free. Robert

[Dave Fawthrop]

|On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:31:03 GMT, Tony Bryer |wrote: | |>On 12 Jan 2007 07:24:57 -0800 Phil wrote : |>>

|>|>I think that you have to give HMG quite a lot of credit for making |>so much freely available: I used to spend loads of money on |>Building Regulations documents of one sort or another. Indeed I |>missed the fact that the new Part L Heating Compliance Guide is |>available as a free download and paid ?? for my copy. |>

|>It would certainly be nice if BSs were done of the same basis: |>they cost serious money even if you are a BSI member like us and |>can buy them at half price, because the publication sales have to |>finance all the research and committee expenses. |>

|>I think though that it is a slightly different issue with things |>like OS mapping where the user is making direct commercial use of |>it. | |It used to annoy me that HSE charged for many of their publications - |seemd to be contrary to the whole ethos of having a HSE. | |Although Building Regs are now downlaodable they often refer to BS |standards which arent free.

Look in the reference section of your Local Central Library Bit of a pain but still free, except for copying.

[cucumber]

Take a half decent digital camera with macro focus to the library :)

Building regs are freely available and rightly so but what's the reason for BS documents not being free?

[Andy Hall]

BSI is a commercial organisation, incorporated by Royal Decree.

It does receive government funding towards national standards activities, but this does not cover all of the costs of them.

More details at

in the new MoU document referenced on that page.

It is quite commonplace for standards documents to be chargeable items.

ISO

charges, as does ANSI

The documents are not cheap but not cheap to produce either.

[John Stumbles]

Yours maybe but not ours: they cancelled their subs to the BS. Mind you we're just a little town out in the boondocks, somewhere between Maidenhead and Newbury :-)

[OG]

I think the point of the argument is that this is an anomaly and that knowledge of such 'standards' (if they are to be applied by statute) should not be limited to those who are prepared / are required to pay for them.

If standards (like the law) are enforceable, they must be available to all; not just those who have the ability to pay.

[Hugo Nebula]

On 12 Jan 2007 11:39:18 -0800, a particular chimpanzee named "cucumber" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Or live in Manchester[1], where one can view them online for free via Manchester's library website.

[1] It's a high price, I know!

Because as Tony says, you're not paying for the document, you're paying for all the research and committees. Much of the Approved Documents are based on BSs or BR Digests, so I suspect they don't cost the Government a lot to produce.

[Andy Hall]

That's a very long piece of string.

In most cases, the standards are *referenced* by the legislation but are not part of it. Virtually all standards are referenced by one piece of legislation or another - either directly or indirectly. For example, manufacturers or importers of many types of goods are required by law to place the CE mark on them, signifying that they meet all of the relevant standards for that product. One something like a piece of IT equipment, this includes standards related to electromagnetic emissions and susceptibility, safety and so on. On power tools and machinery there are generic and specific standards and so on.

For many standards there are Euronorm (EN) and then national standards using them (for example in the UK, prefixed with BS-EN xxxxx). The whole purpose is to have harmonisation to prevent some countries having different standards and erecting trade barriers as happened in the past. The standards documents and the work behind them cost a lot of money to produce and that has to be found from somewhere. One couldn't have a situation where the same material is freely available in one country and has to be purchased in another. Therefore the practice is that they are generally chargeable items.

So then it comes to the means of funding. In effect there are three main ways:

- If I am buying a product to which a set of standards apply, the manufacturers buys the standards, applies them to his product and tests it before placing it on the market. The cost of this is passed to the purchasers, in effect. They can elect to trust his integrity in self certifying his product, or buy the standards, test themselves and so on at their option. Of course in some critical usage applications this may happen.

- A similar thing goes for service. If I buy a rewire of my home, the way that the legislation intends it to happen, I am buying the expertise that the contractor will do the work in accordance with BS7671 and be able to certify to that. This would imply that he has bought and read said document and/or has references to it. Again the cost of the standards is passed on. Whether all of this happens correctly and the guy is competent is another matter, but that is the intent.

- The third way would be for all standards work and publications to be funded out of taxation. That would need international agreements if there are harmonised standards. Moreover, it becomes the same argument of whether or not taxation should cover things that the vast majority of the population are not likely to use.

For example; if I am a typical homeowner and have an outside contractor do my wiring, I don't need a copy of BS7671 to check it - it's pointless anyway because unless I have reasonably detailed understanding of principles of electricity and engineering thereof, I wouldn't understand much of it anyway. OTOH, if I am going to DIY electrical work, I do need to have an understanding of BS7671 in order to do it properly, which either means buying the standard itself and/or a very good reference to it. Either way there is a cost and that should be treated as part of the project.

I don't think it's reasonable for a small minority to expect to get standards for "free" (but really funded by the taxpayer), when the majority are not really able to make direct use of their content. The current system, whereby the user(s) of the standard pay for it directly or indirectly through purchase of goods and services, seems to me to be a fair one.

One of the whole points of having standards is one of manufacturers and suppliers warranting and being able to demonstrate that their products and services meet defined criteria for safety and operation. The user/conumer can't possibly expect to have the technical expertise in all fields to a sufficient degree to make use of all of them.

When it comes to relating the law to all of this; when I buy a product that the manufacturer has labelled, it is incumbent upon the manufacturer to comply with the law, not the consumer. The same goes for the electric wiring example. If as a consumer, I choose to take on part or all of the role of contractor, then I must expect to have to apply some or all of the criteria that they have to and to also cover the costs of that.

[Mary Fisher]

Last time I went to ours I copied a lot from my chosen document - with permission - on the library's copier.

Mary

>

[Ed Sirett]

I agree. See bottom line of sig, (my small slice of creative anarchy).

[Tony Bryer]

Well as pointed out before, being able to get Acts of Parliament, Circulars etc, for free only dates back ten or so years old.