How much work in a wooden floor?

[GMM]

Coming close to buying a largish Victorian house in need of quite a lot of work. Given the scale of the project, I'll need to get some work done by others as it'll be years before it's in any useful state if I'm doing all the work. Right now, I'm trying to plan what I should do and what I should pay for.

One job is replacement of a suspended wooden floor in a 17 x 14 ft room. It's pretty clear that the original joists rotted many years ago and the thing is held up by brick piers and wedges in the cellar, and it all looks a bit of a bodge. Simple answer would be complete replacement and the one quote I have so far is getting on for £5k. At a rough guess, the materials would leave plenty of change out of £1k, so that sounds like £4k for labour.

Now I find it difficult to see that much work in the job: I've never replaced a floor but I have built a deck, which is much the same principle. I would see it as running a ledger board along each long side, joists across and floorboards on top of that, skirting back on, job done. Doing that and 'paying myself' £4k sounds like a good use of my time.

So, am I missing something here or is it simply that this quote is over-priced? I can't really start getting competitive quotes until I have the place, and this was from a timber and damp survey that was done while assessing the place. ( I suspect these 'free surveys' have the benefit of bringing in a certain amount of work with a high mark- up and, if challenged, the firm would say that they were helping the purchaser to justify a price reduction. )

Any views on this, experiences or gotchas, chaps?

[dom]

5k far too much for replacing a floor of that size, unless there's some unusual conditions.

Did the price perhaps include any remedial work against whatever caused the rot in the first place?

[GMM]

Not really.....the joist ends had rotted some time ago from being buried in a damp wall, which was subsequently damp-proofed. I don't think there's anything particularly special about it at all.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Mine was fixed like this too when I needed a woodwork guarantee (for the mortgage) before moving in.

But it's not a bodge - it's been fine for over 30 years. Only the ends of the joists where they went into the walls were rotten.

If you have further problems, perhaps it's still covered by a warranty?

[GMM]

=A0 London SW

It was done before the current owners moved in, so there aren't any guarantees available. You could always argue that it's been there for a long time so should keep going for longer, but there's a definite slope, and spring, to the floor and the timbers don't look too clever to me, so I think it's a good plan to deal with it at the outset, before decorating, furnishing etc. I'm very tempted to have a bash myself, unless I can get a substantially cheaper quote, and use some of the cash saved towards flooring in oak instead of pine.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Does sound like it's been badly done. With brick pillars supporting, it should be more rigid than originally. And certainly no slope - unless it was like that before.

[John Rumm]

Sounds like a doable job to me. Either a couple of fixed boards as you describe (with DPC behind), and normal joist hangers, or dispense with the side boards altogether and use masonry fix hangers directly on the wall.

The "timber and damp/rot" specialist companies seem to in particular delight in OTT pricing. I recall one quote in particular on a place I know, where the job was to fix dry rot that had got into a upstairs floor, and also the bresema beam over the top of a big window that supported the corner of the house in cantilever. They started off hacking back the plaster, ceiling, decorative Victorian cove etc, with an initial estimate of 12K. This they then expanded to 19K when they saw the scope of the work. About this time the owner told them where to go. Got a local joiner in to do the work (under 3K), someone else to treat the rot affected areas (£150), and had to pay a fair bit to have the cove replicated and replaced IIRC (which was not included in the specialist companies quote anyway).

[Dean Heighington]

Yep. Do it yourself, as they say. If you've built a deck before you should have no problems and no tradesman will be able to beat the price of doing it yourself. Wood is an easy and forgiving material to work with so why the hell not :) Can you use the existing niches in the wall to support the new joists or would you need wall plates and joist hangers? Also, if you've a cellar beneath the room that would make it easier on the knees (except for the floor covering/boards.) If it's sloping and springy you'd definitely be better to replace it.

[GMM]

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I was thinking of hangers straight onto the walls, but it seemed to me that a board along each wall would ensure that everything is level etc, whereas a small variation at each independent hanger could lead to a wonky floor. Am I being a bit over cautious there, do you think? I also thought a well fixed board, with dpc (as you say) would space everything well away from walls which might one day seep some dampness.

The costs you quote costs sound a little like the proportions I have in mind here: On a job like this, there would be maybe a day to clear the old floor and a couple of days to build the new one. All up, I would have thought £1.5 - 2k was a reasonable quote for the job (including maybe £500 in materials), which I might well consider paying, since time is money and all that. It just seems that £4k is taking the michael. As I indicate before, I suspect these companies offer free damp and timber surveys on the basis that most people will just use them for the job subsequently, without thinking of alternatives. The problem for me is that multiplying these sort of costs by all the jobs that need doing in this new place could easily break the bank before the basic work is done.

[GMM]

I'm a bit reluctant to try to fiddle new joists into the old niches, partly because it's asking for the same old problem again and partly because it sounds like it would be hard work to me (!): I assume it would be necessary to remove some adjacent bricks to get a joist in, adding another dimension (ie cutting them out and mortaring back in) to the job.

I agree that the cellar might make it easier. On the other hand it's quite a high (or is that deep?) cellar, so I'll have to arrange something to stand on along each wall, to work reasonable comfortably.

Of course, doing it myself might also allow me to justify some new toys: I could use a new chop saw and this might be the time to look at the benefits of a decent laser level......

[NT]

It would also make the structure more rot vulnerable

You could put a board up as a temporary measure just to line up the hangers with, fix the hangers to masonry. If any are a bit out of line, just put a bit of packing material into the hanger for the joist to sit on. You can do it any way you want really.

NT

[GMM]

=A0 London SW

It's clearly been that way for some time - I reckon it was done as a cheap job some years ago. At least it hasn't fallen down (yet) so whoever did it might say that it was a success!

[John Rumm]

Not allowed under modern building regs IIUC. (they are also not fond of any form of "complicated" joinery on joists either like haunched tennons etc preferring the repeatability and easy load calculations offered by steel hangers).

[John Rumm]

The board would be easier, if you are confident that it is not going to be at risk of rotting due to contact with the wall etc. However I would site it level with the joists and then use jiffy hangers on it for each joist. (use sheradised square twist nails in every hole).

The masonry fix hangers would probably be better if it needed to take a heavy load, since you can get them rated at 12kN or more.

Timber would probably be less than £350, metalwork will vary depending on which route you go - but ought to be no more than £200 ish.

(when I did a complete loft floor in 2004, the timber was about £350, and the steel about £430 (that was mostly hangers, but also five flitch plates, and bolts etc)

Indeed. Its going to be a case of work out which jobs to DIY and which are worth paying for due to hassle, complexity, time span etc.

Joisting out a floor I would definitely DIY - it really is very simple and is a pretty quick job - the materials are also pretty cheap - most of the sting in commercial quotes will be the labour.

[John Rumm]

As an aside, if you want less spring in a room that size when re-done, stick a couple of rows of herringbone across the joists (either traditional cut from wood, or the modern metal straps)

[Rick Hughes]

If you want to replace the joists .... best way is to fit pressure impregnated longitudinal bearers .... using appropriate anchors, then fit joist hangars, and hang your new joists on those.

[Andy Dingley]

Sounds low for timber, high for labour.

Spinning spot laser levels are wonderful, but the =A350 ones don't work in daylight.

[Phil L]

When you say 'cellar' do you mean crawlspace, or is it an usable space?

if it's just a 2 - 3ft gap, why not just fill it with MOT and lay concrete over insulation.

20t MOT = < £300 insulation =

[tony sayer]

If you feel up to it and confident you can do it and its not rocket science then just do it;!...

It has always seemed to me that if theres sufficient ventilation under floors like this and reasonably dry then they seem to behave themselves and don't rot...

[Newshound]

Yes but 1) Very often there isn't 2) Victorian walls seldom have an effective DPC