First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will not happen with part P. Also "professional" electricians can be as bad as the worst DIYer. I am working on my daughters house in Manchester. The previous occupant was an elderly lady (ripe for rip-off). Speaking to one of her sons he tells me that she had the immersion heater, and some other electrical work done by a electrical installation company of some standing. Just started on the second bedroom, took out the old airing cupboard and wiring for the immersion heater. On tracing it I found that to save running a new wire up to it they simply disconnected one side of the ring main from the distribution box and ring then used that for the immersion heater. Nice money saver eh?
About seven years ago, an European directive on 'electromagnetic compatibility' (EMC) came in to force, and the onus was on equipment manufacturers to test and ensure that their products complied. However the definition of manufacturer was a bit wide, and people who assembled products built out of subassemblies (the PC builder community) also came under the same regime, even though they had used 'CE' marked items in the build (these don't guarantee a system 'pass' as other factors need to be taken in to consideration....)
Anyway, back in 1998 the mechanics of fear*, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about impending prosecutions from the authorities, lead some companies to spend thousands on radio frequency emission testing and static discharge testing. A friend had a short job doing some of these tests - getting some PC systems to pass without wrapping everything in copper foil, ferrite cores and additional passive filters was a very frustrating time for him, but it was felt necessary because it was the Law...
As far as I know, It still is the law.
But apart from the larger PC manufacturers, the rest of the industry has relaxed somewhat - and now it's back to the good ole pre-CE days. You can probably cook a steak placing it next to some of the plastic unshielded PC boxes on sale today. (Sorry, I jest - April 1st has just gone by...)
So, similarly the observance of 'Part P' will pass, and people will still be at risk from dodgy home electrics (never mind the bargain metal table lamp from the car boot sale with the rubber sheathed two core twisted flex)
Yes - but the compenents - specifically the PSUs - have improved dramatically. A home assembled PC possibly still fails but at least it won't be so far out now.
He doesn't know what he is talking about. You can't register as competent person, only companies in business can register and the nominate a competent person/s. and looking at wiring before plasterin is not required, he sounds more dangerous than the DIyers. You ar supposed to tell them before starting the work and they stuff you for registration fee, then when it is complete you are not allowed t energise the circuit until it has been inspected and tested by competent persom appointed by the BCO who will energise it when he i satisfied and you pay the examination fee. This all costs the same a getting a registered spark to do it for you, generally. As for our friend who asked the question, if the company was NICEI registered tell them and they will take the issue up. No electricia should be taking any shortcuts, thats if it really was done by company. I was involved in a similar instance some time ago and whe all came to all the guy had done it himself after other work had bee done by the company properly and he was trying to pass the blame on when it caused a small fire
From the legal perspective that is true. The practical point was that he was not bothered about it, probably because he realises that in comparison with what can happen if a house is not constructed correctly, there isn't a problem to solve.
You are making the assumption that DIYers are dangerous. There is no evidence to support that DIY fixed wiring work is a cause of fires or electrocutions in any meaningful quantity.
This is the NICEIC propaganda on the subject.
I hadn't noticed that the Statutory Instrument amending the Building Regulations or even the Approved Documents appointed NICEIC as the policeman for all of this. Also, contrary to what NICEIC may think, there are a number of other approved self certification schemes, so it should not imagine that it has an exclusive. You aren't in their marketing department are you?
You must have been very fortunate to find one of the handful of fires that occur each year from fixed wiring.
Very interesting - good job you reposted the info, because I must have missed your original thread. I'd be intersetd to hear what details you get from them, as there is not much on their website.
Not necessarily. As I've mentioned in another thread recently, NAPIT (the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers) have advertised a Part P scheme aimed at qualified individuals working on their own property or doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows you to self-certify up to eight notifications per year for a reduced membership fee (GBP 185 pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial assessment). I'm still waiting for them to reply to my e-mail asking for full details.
See also
formatting link
and looking at wiring before plastering is not required,
Others have reported inspection being required at first-fix stage, so I wouldn't be so sure about saying that.
You read but obviously didn't understand what i said ( and I'm not a NIC supporter) If the firm was NIC registered then they would take u the issue of poor work. Not hard to follow. I see dangerous wiring every week and it is all DIY work not done b qualified electricians. that doesnt mean all electricians are saint but they do understand the dangers involved in not doing thing correctly. Not hard to understand.
There arent a huge number of fires each year but there are som attributed to electrical faults, The point I made was this guy had don the wrong thing and attempted to blame a legit company for it and i happens often. Not hard to understan.
You obviously have knowledge and have read the regs from end to end bu seem to spend more time being contentious than helpful which is sad. In some cases people can and do do electricl work ok but in the mai because they do not have in depth knowledge of the subject o electrical installation, they make mistakes or assumptions that ar potentially dangerous. I dont like part P and anyone with sense can se its more to do with tax revenue than safety issues. but it is there an it is law and encouraging people to flout it is irresponsible
Possibly, but they are meant to be operating a self certification scheme, not acting as police with regard to the legislation.
I find it very hard to believe that *all* of the bad work that you claim that you see is attributable to DIY. The competent DIYer has a far greater commitment to doing good and safe work than an unqualified cowboy. You don't mention the cowboys which this legislation is supposed to put out of business and of course won't. You are also assuming that a qualified electrician is going to understand the dangers in not doing something properly. That's a very big assumption.
No it isn't, and I wasn't condoning it.
If you had taken the trouble to read the thread and the topic, you would have realised that this *is* a contentious issue and that most people here who realise what has been going on and have taken the trouble to point out to the government that the basis is flawed, are somewhat underwhelmed by it.
That's a ridiculous and sweeping statement which is not supported by fact or outcome.
Nobody is encouraging anybody to flout the law, but simply pointing out that in this case that it is an ass. The original basis for implementing it was flawed, the statistics were cooked, the wrong thing was implemented and the official bodies who are meant to police it aren't interested. All of this was entirely predictable.
The only parties who actually wanted it were the trade organisations who saw it as a way to secure work at a higher price for their members and a government who want to regulate as much as they can and bring the trades into the tax system. All of this was when there wasn't a problem to solve in the first place.
Then it is better that we educate them instead of blindly wibbling on about Part Pee, so that such people can make an informed decision about what to do, instead of thinking that we're unhelpful yes-men for nanny Prescott.
No, encouraging people to conform with Part P is irresponsible when that leads to dangerous practices like extension leads etc.
fair enough Andy although Napit have been slapped by opdm and told t work within the rules as they are and have had to pull their Fastrac approval where if you were ( or claimed to be) qualified electrician you could self certify until they got round to visiting you. As th rules atnd you have to register and pay up front then be assesed etc, really can't see anyone happily paying out £500 quid just to be able t rewire a few sockets or whatever. they have also jumped on the idea th you can certify someone elses work. The looking at the wiring at firs fix I would fully supporta nd some may well do it but they would b breaking the law to then sign it off, which was the point I was making It has to be tested as you know in line with BS7671 as well. The whol thing is a complete mess, if they were serious about afety they woul have just made it Illegal to do it unless you were a qualifie electrician and created a national register of such people, lioke the do on the continent. I know a lot of competent electricians who ar retiring or going into other jobs beacause they refuse to join in thi crap. I unfortunately don't have tha option and have jumped through al the hoops, but it wont really do any good as there is no real way yo can police this stupid legislation
Oh yes, they're famed for high standards of electrical safety on the Continent. Telling us what colour cables we can use when they can't even sort out their own.
It's quite legal to do electrics yourself in most countries in the EU. But when you sell the house they require a complete inspection plus in some countries you have to make a statement guaranteeing all works are to standard.
And what counts as a 'qualified electrician'. Joining the NIECEE or whatever it's called doesn't cut it in my book. There are thousands of members of the IEE and IEEE who are more than adequately qualified to do such work but as they don't do it professionally they wouldn't join what is a trade association (read closed shop).
And what counts as a 'qualified electrician'. Joining the NIECEE or whatever it's called doesn't cut it in my book. There are thousand of members of the IEE and IEEE who are more than adequately qualified t do such work but as they don't do it professionally they wouldn't joi what is a trade association (read closed shop). The NICEIC is not a trade body, it is a charity set up to promot electrical safety , the ECA is a trade body. They did indeed promote par P as they they only had about 14% of the trade as members between them they thought they would carve up the industry and share about 8-1 million in income. Fortunately this was not allowed and there are certifying bodies. As for diyers being more dedicated, they may well be but they still don have the knowledge. Electrical installation is a great deal more tha just knowing electrical theory a fact which seems to elude you. Could yo be frustrated member/s of the IEE ? . Being a member of the IEE only mean you have reached a certain level of Electrical Education ( theoretical and are not necessarily qualified to do either Industrial or Domesti installation, as said above there is a great deal more thn jus electrical theory involved. I have a number of friends who are stil members of the IEE and I wouldnt let them install a socket for me, bu they are brilliant engineers. I have already said the every week I see DIY work which frightens m and I have to put it right, also as a professional I am legall responsible for what I do and can't abandon a ring main because th junction box/ cable run or whatever is under the newly tiled bathroo floor, I have to know and do whatever is necessary to make it safe/right The number of rings that I have to put right because they are actuall single ended daisy chains is legion. There are plenty of cowboys, but have not come across a cowboy electrician, they are usually builders central heating engineers, burglar alarm mechanics and sometime first/second year apprentices, they do the strange and ridiculous thing with household wiring. The training of apprentice electricians has neve been better on the academic side than it is now and the practica training in the firms I have contact with is also very good Some of the statements made above clearly demonstrate that you are not doing Installation work as a living, and giving advice how ever wel meant to someone who patently doesn't understand the implications is mos definitely irresponsible ( "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" ) The implications outside the actual electrical safety issues, are legion like structural integrity of building, maintaining the fire safet integrity, running cables in defined areas, preventing failure of anothe service and that failure not compromising the electrical safety, etc, etc
I don't seek to denigrate the qualifications and abilities of othe trades / professions and neither should you, it demonstrates a ver unjustified contempt for those you see as less qualified than you
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.