High Security = Low Security

[tim.....]

Just moved into my new flat.

It has DPS "High Security" locks which are (presumably) un-pickable.

However, I have one key which own both the communal front door and my own flat's door.

I guessing that means that I can't change the cylinder and get a batch of new keys as they then wont be able to open the front door (unless that is, there's only one common door keying).

So I'm stuck with having to hope that previous tenants haven't kept a key (Or worse, given one to their friends).

How is this good security?

tim

[docholliday93]

There are systems which allow the front door to be opened by a multiplicity of different keys, but they can be complicated. The locksmith who fitted t he locks in the first place may be able to produce a new pinning for the cy linder which still opens the front door - though often these things are ord ered as a complete suite of locks requiring you to go back to the manufactu rer armed with permissions signed by anyone who might have an interest and then pay an arm and a leg... I think I'd just give up on the convenience of having the same key for both doors unless it's something that's ruled out by the tenancy agreement.

[Nightjar]

More accurately, you won't be able to open both with the same key. You could always have two keys, one for each door.

Colin Bignell

[Tim Watts]

On Wednesday 31 July 2013 17:16 tim..... wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Nothing is unpickable. If a key exists, a copy can be made. The only factor is how time consuming it is.

It's not. Change your front door lock if in doubt. It's easy to DIY one way or another.

[tim.....]

Well obviously.

But I'm not going to spend the stupid amount that they want for (a replacement of) this lock and lose the convenience

If I have to have two key's, I will just drill a hole in the door and fit a second "B&Q" lock.

tim

[tim.....]

I own it on a long lease. I think that I can tell the freeholder where to go if he tries to make up rules about my door locks where the change affects no-one else.

Though you are right about the restrictions where it does.

tim

[Nightjar]

Do you have the authority to have new keys cut for your front door? If not then neither would the previous tenant and you should be able to find out from the landlord just how many keys have been authorised for your lock. If that matches the number you have, you don't have a problem.

Colin Bignell

[tim.....]

I don't see why not. I'm a long leaseholder (of a two bed flat) I can't see how the freeholder can reasonably restrict me to only two keys. If I was a LL (letting to two people) I'd need a third.

Hm,

The MA has recently changed. They couldn't even come up with the proof from the old MA that the previous leaseholder paid all that was owing. (I've had to take a risk on that).

I have no faith that if I asked: "How many keys did the previous leaseholder have authorised?" that I would get a sensible answer.

I agree. I just don't see that I can get there. (Though I admit that I didn't even consider this option when I posted, so I suppose this would be the "normal" solution even if it doesn't work for me now)

[Dave Liquorice]

door? If

Quite. The paper says it's so, so it is. That's the basis of the horse meat scandle, the logging one and no doubt numerous others.

That depends a bit on the type of key at least as far as going to a locksmith is concerned. These DPS locks may be tricky to get duplicate keys made. But probably not impossible if you have a good story and a not 100% straight lock smith.

[djc]

Get a new key & cylinder for your front door and keep the old key for the communal door.

[The Medway Handyman]

They might well be security keys. If they have a 'very' long number stamped on them, only the locksmith who supplied the locks can cut keys, only with the written authority of the owner.

[charles]

I understood that it was ruled an infringement of free trade to make that condition. Certainly I have had no difficulty in obtaining duplicates of apparently "secure keys" from a repautable locksmith.

[John Williamson]

And for really secure locks, the makers will not release the blanks at all, and you need to order the key from them by number, in writing, with the appropriate paperwork.

[Nightjar]

...

I was under the impression that refers to restricted profile keys, rather than high security keys.

Colin Bignell

[Tim Watts]

On Wednesday 31 July 2013 22:09 Nightjar wrote in uk.d-i-y:

There's alot to be said for card keys or dongle keys - you can program the lock to renounce all previous keys and effectively have multiple keys that have their own ID (so any single one can be removed from the system).

Also makes the handling of "master keys" infinitely flexible.

[Nightjar]

I can see the advantage of card keys where there is a high turnover rate, such as in an hotel. The industrial estate I used to have my factories on has contactless key fobs for the night security gates. Their turnover is not as great and they can charge a hefty deposit for the fobs.

For flats, I would have thought that the best option was a good quality electronic key pad system, as I had on an office I used to rent. Each tenant had their own code, which opened both their office door and the common door (which could also be released by door phone). The landlord's agent had to approve each code, so that there were no easy to guess codes, and programmed them into the system. The multiplicity of codes meant that none of the keys on the common door pad would show signs of more use than others.

Colin Bignell

[The Medway Handyman]

My experience has been quite the opposite.

AFAIK the reason isn't profit, but security.

[Dave Liquorice]

And the wear/clean buttons problem can be avoided by having a nixie tube behind each button and moving the numbers about after each use. Also makes shoulder surfing harder.

I bet the draw back is that as people can't remember and use the the pattern for the code rather than the code itself, codes (unless strictly controlled) become simple...

[F Murtz]

they are not usually unpickable,they often have a registered slot pattern which most locksmiths will not copy without authorisation.

In fact often mastered systems are easier to pick because they have multiple pins per slot which allow differing keys to line them up, which allows the picker more choices.

[docholliday93]

Ah, right - I was misled by the reference to previous tenants. If you meant that the previous owner had been renting the flat out that just gives one more possibility for someone to have retained a key, and I'd certainly want to change the lock or the cylinder. Some of the higher security systems require you to have a card with a code that is used to cut the key - you can't cut the key just from another key. This does make it easier to control duplication, but since you didn't menti on a card I'm assuming that isn't the case here. In any case it still doesn 't necessarily solve the problem of former owners or tenants retaining a le gitimately acquired key.