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small businesses. The size would also seem to be a major obstacle too as it's unlikely to fit in a van.
Simple solutions using readily available materials (e.g. scaffolding poles as suggested in my earlier post ) are usually the best bet.
Cic.
Christ, I didn't get that far down the page. Still, it gives you ideas I suppose.
It certainly does!
A ladder with a couple of stays to prevent side slip and a manual winch.
Cheers chaps.
ROTFL - Yes I did miss that r out - (not intentionally I may add, and I can't even blame the spell-checker) - but it certainly adds to the post!!
Nah, not a "pet" John - I just don't agree with the bloke! Now as for "stalking him" - then if I was doing that, I would respond to every one of posts.
One big raspberry to you also!
The point is that working at any height and trying to manoeuvre and secure a heavy load using a couple of unstable step-ladders, Heath Robinson ideas, a lot of brawn and very little brain usually leads to someone getting hurt, and it would be far safer to use a proper scaffolded base to work off and to support the load properly - if all that's being used to lift it really is brawn.
As for "going by the book" - well that's the first time I've never been accused of that by people who have worked for me.
Now for working safely, I've often been accused of that and I'm all for it and sod the criticism - aren't you the same then?
Perhaps my memory is failing, but your most frequent reason for posting these days seems to be to have a pop at Dave, which gets a bit tiresome. (admittedly, you don't reply to every post - that really would be dribble level tiresome)
The whole thrust of the thread was to investigate alternate strategies other than just applying brute force an ignorance. Note that are not talking about particularly large loads here in absolute terms, nor are we talking about great heights. We are looking for ways to make a potentially awkward job easier and safer.
Well you seemed to be quoting chapter and verse without actually moving any way to offer a solution to the actual problem.
I am all for working safely, and by the fact that Dave posted the question in the first place, it seems safe to assume he is to. So why try to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution?
No, your memory is ok, and as I said, I just don't agree with the bloke - probably because he's an amateur trying to be a professional and not quite admitting it, and I formed that opinion from many of his earlier posts - but that's life, you can't like everybody.
From reading the OP, the job seemed to me to be a simple one if a scaffold of some sort was used to enable a working platform and as a method of supporting the load (perhaps with the addition of a few, strategically place scaffold tubes) - which would be obvious with someone sufficiently skilled to carry out this work as a contractor. Just a bit of
I know more about 'the book' than I let on, I also know that whilst 'blind obediance' to its contents can protect the old rear end, its not always practical to follow it - but to avoid injury (sod the material damage, cash will resolve that), thought must be given to a safe method of work and a great deal of 'common sense' used when 'shortcuts' are undertaken - and there seems to be a lack of that here.
As for the solution, on a job as simple as that one appears, that would be self-evident.
I disagree there for the following reasons:
1 This is the wrong place for a 'professional' contractor be asking in for advice critical, basic safety procedures. 2 A DIY group is the wrong place for a contractor to be asking for specific information on how to lift and support loads of any type. 3 As a 'professional' contracting his 'skills and knowledge' to a client, he really should know what he's doing when he tenders for the work, and reflect in his price the costs of any safety gear.With regards to item 3 - I believe in a post in this thread TMH has stated that "Alas, getting that sort of kit in the van or having it delivered would be problematic and the cost of hire would be out of proportion." - and that says quite a lot about his professionalism and attitude - and possibly poor tendering a pricing procedures as that can be legitimately priced for - and its that attitude that *will* cause his undoing if ever he branches out from decking and the odd handyman job.
As an aged engineer once said, any idiot can do a job properly. It takes an engineer to do one both properly and cheaply. I take it you are not an engineer.
As "this place" includes many people with a wide variety of real professional experience and qualifications way beyond the boundaries of the building trade why do you think that?
A contractor who asks for advice when faced with a new problem is showing far more professionalism than one who decided they know it all beforehand. Time spent in reconnaissance is rarely wasted.
You mean it is realistic and founded upon practicality and experience?
Any idiot can summon up a brace of cherrypickers to replace a ladder. Those wallowing in the local authority pigtrough are masters in gold plating jobs. It doesn't make them any safer, just more expensive. A short time ago while a local authority "professional" team were carrying out a risk assessment and ordering a climbing team to remove a dumped mattress from a roadside bank someone walked down, picked it up and disposed of it.
Nope, just an old contractor who did jobs like this for a living - and within the price quoted. Is that enough of a qualification?
Perhaps a problem with some of the DIY solutions that are suggested!
See 1 above.
I quite agree with that, but I would suggest that a 'professional' would have the knowledge to find the information within his own peer group of 'experts' who have had past experience of the problems. Going by past posts, you are unlikely to find that depth of knowledge here.
The OP lack both.
An idiot can also use a ladder where it would dangerous to do so - look at the accident statistics of DIYers (and pros) using ladders stupidly
And it was for that reason that the government brought in the Workig at Height legislation which has 'forced' the satellite television engineer to drill a hole on the face brickwork of my house to fit an eyebolt into wall so that he could tie his ladders to it, don a safety harness and clip this to a safety wire on the ladder. Only then could he climb up around 2.5 metres and adjust the satellite dish - oh, and he had to don a hard-hat to protect himself from the birdshit.
And the private company masters don't plunge into their own "pigtrough"? A bit of naivety there if you think they don't.
BTW, what's the link between local authorities and this particular thread - not a trading standards officer trying to give safety advice by any chance?
It doesn't make them any safer, just more expensive. A
Not quite sure how you digressed onto local authority claptrap, as I was referring to the real world of hard-nosed contracting and pricing - perhaps that's why the 'professionals' shouldn't look for advice here. And you have just proved that point, as the subject matter always digressess to irrelevant, and therefore 'suspect' information.
Well he gets paid to do what he does, so by definition must be professional. It also seems a little unlikely that any one of us would have the encyclopaedic knowledge or skills base to tackle *all* and every job that jo public might request be done for them. I am sure there are gaps in your knowledge and skills base as well.
True, but do you need to keep reminding us? We know already!
So why not post that then?
Why is it the wrong place? There are many professional trades people who post here regularly. Many of us also run business in a wide range of disciplines.
This is not a only a DIY group... Yes I know its in the name, but there are professional engineers here, plumbers, electricians, people with experience of running commercial manufacturing facilities, farmers, and folks who want to know what sander to buy to name but a few. It does not take much experience reading the group to work out which posters are likely to be spot on for any given topic.
It seems to me that if one is capable of doing 90% of a job, and with a quick question in the right place can gain the remaining 10% of the information required to do a good job, then one would be daft to turn work away just because there is one learnable aspect of the job you don't immediately know how to do.
I suspect the tendering process goes something along the lines of "Do you want to install awnings for us?", followed by "we pay £x" for every one. This frequently precludes £300 of hire charges on a £200 job.
Now you could suck air through your teeth, and say "well I can see that
80% of the jobs we can do easily enough from a couple of sets of steps, its low risk, and a quick job that pays nicely. However those longer ones are going to be a bit tricky using the same technique you know. I think all things considered we will pass".Alternatively, one could take the jobs, and at the same time work out a quick and effective way of removing the hassle from the more tricky installs. In the process your skill base grows, as does your reputation for being able to knock out the difficult installs quickly with no fuss.
So folks are resistant to learning new stuff. It usually is their ultimate undoing.
You can claim anything you like here, no one can check.
That is the nature of newsgroups. However, you will find others comment on proposals so it usually isn't too difficult for someone to make an informed judgment after reading the totality of the responses.
That is merely your unsubstantiated opinion, which may or may not be worth much. I suggest it is more likely that you will get sensible opinions here than from a few mates in the pub.
In your opinion, which you keep repeating ad nauseam and which may be fairly worthless.
Indeed, the "professionals" in the construction trade have a much higher rate of injury than home users so perhaps they have something to learn from some DIY users?
Schedule 6 (Requirements for ladders) of Statutory Instrument 2005 No.
735 The Work at Height Regulations 2005, with which you appear to be unfamiliar, mandates no such absurd precautions.It seemed that would be an area of employment you might have been more familiar with.
But its probably good enough excuse for your average sky installer to insist that they can only install a dish the mandatory "two drunks high" on the front of the building since "we can't climb higher due to H&S etc".
Isn't that a better description of a professional, only does a small range of things, because he either can't or doesn't want to do lots of things.
People like the HSE generally help draft perfectly reasonable laws (such as the one under discussion) and then print perfectly reasonable advice.
The problem is that when the job of "Elfin safety rep" comes up it doesn't get given to the bright lad but the dullard who no one will miss as they don't achieve anything anyway. Said dullard goes off on a course run by the even duller and comes back complete with volumes of incorrect "interpretations" of those perfectly reasonable laws, a small moustache and the profoundly wrong opinion that listing risks is the same as assessing them. They then go and write (badly) even longer sets of "rules" and when questioned about their sense declare it is morethantheirjobsworth to contradict "Elfinsafety".
Some time ago I attended a meeting at a local authority the aim of which was specifically to try to move forward a project which had stalled for over a year. 5 Minutes after the meeting (which had about
15 participants) started a gray creature at the end of the table said "objection elfinsafety". The chairman promptly declared the meeting closed despite many wanting to know what the objection was about or whether it was well founded. These questions were prohibited. Apparently the meeting had to be terminated because it was that authorities policy that "elfinsafety" objections made by a Trade Union representative were absolute. They could not be discussed or challenged but had to be accepted without complaint even if, as in this case, no one knew what was being objected to..
That sounds more like a specialist, rather than a generalist.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember stuart noble saying something like:
That was how my wife and I installed the cast iron wall-mounted boiler - two step ladders and the boiler on a plank - both lift one end on to next step up. Some shuffling of ladders required.
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