Guarantee on new boiler DIY installed

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Just looking through the paperwork that came with our new boiler (that we'll be installing ourselves in a couple of weeks) and I've noted that their guarantee claims that "Your boiler must have been installed and commissioned... by a registered CORGI installer...". However they also have a clause: "Without proof of purchase i.e. an invoice or completed 'Benchmark' Log Book, the 12 month warranty period will be taken to commence from the date of manufacture as detailed on the appliance data plate." The guarantee form has a section on owner and "Installer's details (if known)" bit. Is it best to fill this bit in as myself but leaving out any CORGI stuff, or just leave blank?
Also, the Benchmark commissioning/service log book asks for the CORGI registration number for the installer and commissioner (if different). The front says "This Log Book is to be completed in full by the competent person(s) who commissioned the boiler" and the signoff inside says: "Competent person's signature". That sounds okay - I'm competent but not a CORGI.
So I should be able to just sign off the boiler myself (subject to all the relevant checks being performed correctly etc) and just leave the CORGI bit blank.
I wonder though what will happen in the future when someone does a service - would they notice/complain about the missing CORGI details?
Also, possibly more importantly in the short term is whether the guarantee is valid without a CORGI sign off. Worst case I guess is that I 'lose' the book during the warranty (which is the only documentary evidence I installed it) and claim I can't remember who installed it - that's if they have a problem with non-CORGI installs.
Any advice? What do other people do who've gone down the DIY route?
Thanks
David
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My understanding of consumer law is that the manufacturer can put whatever clauses they like on their guarantees if they are reasonable and not discriminatory. They don't even have to provide a guarantee to the end user if they so desire. The supplier, on the other hand, provided it is a consumer purchase, rather than trade transaction, does have to provide satisfaction up to a period of six years*, provided you can convince a court that it is reasonable in the circumstance. In a case such as this, you would definitely have to prove that installation issues didn't cause the problem. This might be difficult. The supplier will almost certainly try to wash their hands of the issue by saying that the installation was incompetent.
Christian.
*Actually getting the full six years is rare, except for items supposedly of very good quality that failed demonstrably because of defects in manufacture).
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:56:48 -0000, "David Hearn"

OK, so in the worst case, the warranty started on the date of manufacture, median case on the invoice date.
In principle the various consumer legislation would apply except that since the intent is that the appliance be professionally installed, from the perspective of a purchase from a trade supplier it would be a commercial transaction and as a consumer your redress would be to the installer who would have supplied it. This is a messy area because there is no restriction on consumers buying the product.

Given this situation, I don't think I would put anything in the log book. It doesn't achieve anything.

I rather doubt it.

The guarantee is what the manufacturer wants it to be. You may have redress under the Sale of Goods Act, but the story becomes complicated because the manufacturer has stipulated conditions for installation and use in the instructions.

Why bother? If you don't write anything in the book then that scenario doesn't arise.

You could go for commissioning by a CORGI fitter or ask him to do a Landlord's safety inspection.
I avoided the issue by choosing a boiler and supplier who largely supply the self build market. I agreed a five year warranty of parts and labour with them and on the purchase order made it clear that I was buying as a consumer - they accepted the order on that basis and I also paid by credit card.
I did the installation myself and then the supplier commissioned it and issued a certificate of completion.

.andy
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" "Your boiler must have been installed and

have
commence
The
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ The details of the warranty are quite clear, the manufacturers require a corgi registered installer to commission the boiler. Miss this bit off and you will lose your warranty. This is no different to other walks of life, my car dealership requires me have my car serviced at a main dealer to continue with the warranty. If the car is not serviced they can and DID cancel the warranty, as I found out when my car broke down. If there were no legislation to gas fitting, then anybody would be having a go at it. Accidents would happen all the time, and usually to unsuspecting people who move into the house after said diy fitter has moved on. general public has to be protected somehow. The law is quite sketchy to say the least, anybody can buy and fit a boiler, but the corgi bit means the fitter has shown a competence in gas safety, and completed some training. people will say theres lots of bodgers out there, but this is going to change. Thousands of fitters have been removed from corgi for not being competent. These are people who have been working in the trade and still cant show competence, so where does that leave diy man. some people feel offended when told they need to be corgi, when quite clearly they are competent to fit and commission the boiler. But if that's the case, then why not do the gas training, if its so easy. rob

The
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email
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rob wrote:

--
The point is though, I can send off the card to them without giving the installer's details (ie. 'if known') and should a problem happen within the 12 months, just hide the Benchmark card as there's the clause which states: "Without proof of purchase i.e. an invoice or completed 'Benchmark' Log Book, the 12 month warranty period will be taken to commence from the date of manufacture as detailed on the appliance data plate."
It seems that they may require a CORGI for the warranty, but then give a get-out clause for the only proof there is that it was CORGI installed (ie. the log book).
David
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rob wrote:

--
How long as CORGI been around? Its quite a while now, surely they should have not been registered in the first place when CORGI came out - certainly not take 10 years or whatever to weed them out!

I would agree that the majority of people should not be fiddling with gas pipes etc - BUT - there are plenty of people out there who can do it safely. Some people can't put up shelves without them falling down - doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't do it. Same with electrical work.
Next you'll be saying that only qualified teachers should be able to teach kids, and that home-schooling should be banned because most people aren't able to teach their children everything they need to know. I'd support a restriction on non-qualified people teaching other people's children - but not teaching your own children.

What's the point in becoming CORGI registered to do a one off replacement of a boiler which should have a life of 15 years or so? So far, I've been planning this replacement for 6 weeks or so, reading up, making sure I fully understand the implications of things etc. I've had the manual for ages and know what I need to know and worked out most of the changes needed. Now, when it comes down to it - it can be simplified to 3 things:
1.) Fix to wall + fit flue 2.) Plumb in heating pipes 3.) Fit gas pipe 4.) Wire it up to controls etc.
That's greatly simplified, but if you can work out what you're doing for each one, satisfying all the necessary requirements as you go along (gas/water tight connectiosn, gas pressures, air movements etc) then I think you can do it competently.
When it comes down to it - its my life and my families life which rests on the standard of the installation - and I'm not going to do something unsafe. In fact, I feel that I should be able to do a better job than *some* engineers I've seen.
The CORGI guy who recently 'serviced' our boiler turned up practically drunk (well, smelled as such at 9am and struggled to keep his hands still enough to do up nuts etc). I've not yet heard anything back about my complaint. Had he installed my boiler I would want a second opinion about how safe it was.
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:49 +0000, David Hearn wrote:

If the old boiler was put back safely then I doubt that much will come of the complaint.
An interesting fact that the Corgi inspector told me the other day: CORGI get complaints about (say) a radiator not heating up. Previously they used to say "Sorry we only deal with complaints about gas fitting & gas appliances." However they did a trial to see if the gas side of things had _major_ faults whe they recieved compaints about some other non-gas aspect. They discovered that invariably a bad job on the radiators was matched with a bad job on the boiler and gas so now they will respond to a compaint about any technical aspect of the work done by a registered firm.
As for the original question I suggest you fill in the bechmark book as best you can (so that _you_ go through all the checks). If a warranty claim comes up (unlikely with a low-tech boiler) then just produce the purchase receipt.
The worst you could ever be down is the heat exchanger (and that is very unlikely to start leaking if it does not leak on the first day).
HTH
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
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-
should
certainly
gas
safely.
mean
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I fitted an Ideal boiler for a relative. The boiler had a fault from new and I called out the Ideal serviceman (I don't call servicemen engineers). He walked in and asked if I was CORGI registered. I said I don't need to as I am not making money from this as I am the uncle. He said you have to be CORGI registered to install gas equipment. I responded assertively that CORGI registration is only if you do it professional and that CORGI is only a self interest group. He literally thought that all gas equipment had to be installed by CORGI registered people. I explained to him that the law says "competent" and it was obvious by talking to me that I was more than competent, which is more than I could say for him.
He changed the fan motor. The problem persisted. I called them again. This time the serviceman changed the motor control board, which was the problem, but logical deduction meant it was the only thing left to change. He then looked around the system (this was a boiler change; conventional to combi) and noticed TRVs on all the rads except the one in the hall where the wall stat was. he said the bathroom radiator should not have a TRV on. I said the hall rad acts as the bypass rad and there is a lockshield on both pipes. He kept on about having the bathroom rad with a TRV, as they "always have the bathroom rad without one". I explained to him that the hall rad was much larger and the furthest away rad, and when the pump operates to get rid of excess heat the heat doesn't actually reach the rad, and that the large hall rad will give enough flow of water through the boilers heat exchanger.
He kept on about having the bathroom rad without a TRV. By now I was getting irritated by this idiot. I asked him if a bathroom has some sort of magic karma in there compared to a hall, that works its way inside the rad to the water. He said he will have to make a note in his report that the bathroom rad was not full open. I said make sure you mention that the hall rad is open too.
This idiot of know-it-all then said the wall stat in the hall was opposite the hall rad, which it is, and that the hall would heat up before the rest of the house and switch it all off as the stat was too near the rad. I pointed out that heat from the rad would rise up to the ceiling then up into the stairwell to the hall space on the 1st floor, and it was dropping out prematurely they only had to raise the stat until the optimum is found, and that they will do this by trail and error as most people do. I said to him you need to understand how heating systems work.
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... and how many days was it before you could see out again? :-)

I suppose they do the whole procedure by rote......
.andy
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:31:48 +0000, IMM wrote:

Erm yes.
I asked him if a bathroom has some sort of

I see you have the same winning approach offline. <wink>
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Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
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be
and
-
but
who
support
children -

quite
been
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ages
for
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rests
practically
safe
of
&
They
a
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him
Always a winner.
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Must be a new spelling ;-)
.andy
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But not a snipper?
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*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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...NEVER A SNIPPER!
220 lines of crap and wasted bandwith snipped.
--
Regards from Mike Barnard
South Coast, UK.
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wrote:

I am the greatest snipper in the world.
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"David Hearn" wrote

It doesn't make a frig of difference. He has the certificate of competence, you don't.
Why not do all of the wall mounting, electrical and water connections and call in the CORGI (but obviously not this one) for the Gas bits. You'll still save money hand over fist.
At least the Gas connection will be CORGI certified as 'safe' via this route.
Cheers,
Paul.
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Zymurgy wrote:

The point is whether the work is safe. I don't care whether people think I'm competent - I care that the work is done properly and safely. Him having a certificate won't matter if the thing explodes or gasses us. The fact I don't have a certificate doesn't mean I can't do a good job.

Is this something you've managed to get done before? I've heard the following in this group:
Don't buy the boiler in advance - the fitter will either refuse to fit it (claiming not one he does) or he'll bump up the labour costs as he doesn't get to keep the discount he would have got if he'd bought it for me. Don't try getting the guy to come in to do just the gas work - its too little work for them and not worth their time (ie. we'll be saving money hand over fist - and he'll be getting peanuts). Don't try and find someone to commission it for you after you've installed it - they're not going to put their name to someone else's work and take the blame if there was a problem he missed.
All these suggestions have been made by people before and various people have made those kinds of replies.
Incidentally, doing it this way means we need to make sure we've got the boiler installed for a certain date - pre-booked with the engineer. Either we give a little more time to do it than might be necessary (to make sure its ready for when he comes) and risk having the heating off for a longer period than necessary. Or we don't give ourselves any extra time and risk overrunning and him having to come back another day (which may not be the next day). During that time we've got no heating.
David
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On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:07:33 -0000, "David Hearn"
The problem is that John Prescott deems that you wouldn't do a good job, so no matter how perfect it might be that's all that really counts.
PoP
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PoP wrote:

No, the real problem is that Tony Blair deems that John Prescott always does a good job, so no matter how bad it might actually be that's all that really counts.
;)
David
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On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:15:30 -0000, "David Hearn"

I'm not sure that's true. Bliar might be a lot of things but I don't consider him without intelligence.
It probably suits him to have a buffoon as deputy leader because Bliar knows full well that Prescott will never be a serious contender for the leadership.
The real contender lives next door. And I feel Bliar is waiting for the right opportunity for Brown to get the hot seat, so that Brown is seen as the real culprit for the countries woes.
All we need is for the right European presidency role to come up and Bliars got it made.
PoP
-----
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