Grade II listed - what repairs are allowed?

[YAPH]

[Multi-posting to uk.legal.moderated as I believe cross-posts to u.l.m get dropped automatically.]

I'm doing a job for some folks who've just bought a grade II listed building. (Not loadsamoney: they could only afford it because it's got walls, floors, sort of a roof and that's about it.) Got scaffolding going up for roofing and today apparently part of the chimney stack fell down! Builder went up to look and apparently went white and said he'd get onto it tomorrow. I know this guy and he's not the teeth-sucking "oh dear that'll cost yer" type: if he says it needs fixing it needs fixing.

Meanwhile helpful folks at council got wind of it and came round with binoculars and digicam, looked at it from the ground and said it didn't need rebuilding. Mrs New Owner not too happy, council bods say get a structural engineer to assess it.

Now Bobski the builder will probably rebuild the damn thing for less money than a S.E. would charge for a report, so Mr & Mrs N.O. are inclined to just get Bobski onto it asap.

Q is: what bureaucratic misfortune could council jobsworths wreak on them if they're not happy with this? Assuming chimney is rebuilt as it was before?

[Lino expert]

Listed building malarkey can be a right pain, hopefully this will help, it's from a district council's website:

"Altering or demolishing a listed building without consent can attract heavy penalties, a fine of up to =A32,000 or three months=92 imprisonment, with a possible twelve months=92 imprisonment on indictment and an unlimited fine. An offence is committed unless works have been specifically authorised. Only if works are essential because of public safety can a case be made for demolition, but even then a Dangerous Structure Notice has to be served by the District Council. Remember, it=92s always better to ask first!"

Loopholes that spring out are if the council bods didn't see it when complete, homeowners could claim it was exactly as it was before, but you know the Council - I hate to agree with them, but as it says above "it's always better to ask first". Not worth the hassle of trying it on.

[YAPH]

...

These folks aren't trying it on: they don't want to demolish or alter anything without permission, just to rebuild something that's patently dangerous* so it doesn't crash down through their house causing 10s of £1000s of damage and possibly killing themselves or their children.

• in the opinion of an experienced builder who's been up on the roof and actually looked at it close up, if not to the council drongos who looked from 3 storeys down at street level at a poor angle through binoculars

[Bruce]

Says nothing about repairs, especially emergency repairs.

[Hugo Nebula]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:04:54 GMT, a certain chimpanzee, YAPH randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Which particular Council drongos? The Listed Building ones or the Building Control ones?

[YAPH]

Listed building, I think. The local BCOs are IME OK.

[Lino expert]

Indeed, a poor choice of words on my part.

Looks like they'd need the "Dangerous Structure Notice" referred to.

[Anna Kettle]

Like for like repairs should be completely acceptable, but Conservation Officers all seem to have a mind of their own so you cant assume that what one CO will OK the next CO will too

I would def take 'before' photos as evidence that the repair is like for like. Use hydraulic lime mortar. The word 'cement' is a red rag to a bull

And much as it may be galling they should get the Conservation Officer on side. COs tend to be much more picky when they see new owners with no track record of listed building repairs. If they do this one right they will have less hassle with the CO when the next problem arises

Anna

[Adrian]

YAPH gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Might also be worth them talking to SPAB -

- they've got plenty of real-world experience of "Look, it might be listed, but it's going to be listed rubble unless we actually bloody fix it and NOW"

[chris French]

I agree, it really is worth taking the long term view here. Getting a 'bad name' with the listed building dept at the beginning probably isn't a good idea. Having them be suspicious of everything you do in the future doesn't seem worth it.

Whilst the OP's friends could probably legally get away with going with what the builder wants to do - as a like for like reapir (as long as it is like for like, with as you say Anna, use of the correct materials), IMO it's worth going along with the conservation officers and getting a SE to look at it.

I've always tried to involve the CO when ever I done any significant maintenance, basically they come round, we have a look and a chat, he says OK, we exchange letters to that effect and everyone is happy. It avoids the questioning of work in the future, and builds a good relationship, which might be useful in the future.

Yep it will cost more, it will take longer, welcome to the world of owning and maintaining a listed building :-)

[chris French]

In message , YAPH writes

I'm guessing that they had not spoken to the Listed Building dept before starting any of this work?

You mention roofing work, whilst it could easily be necessary maintenance and like for like repairs, if doing stuff like this it's really worth talking to them first, even if not strictly necessary. That way they know that you will use a suitable material for repairs etc.

[Anna Kettle]

Yes they should get a structural engineer with experience of old buildings. A general purpose structural engineer will cover their own back by over specifying

SPAB will come up with names and I expect the Conservation Officer can too

Anna

[Mark]

First rule of owning a listed building is realising that you need the conservation officer on your side, so if they say you need a structural engineer that's what you do. Its far easier arguing with this bloke because you are paying him. With the nicely typed report now reading as you want it, present to CA, all happy. Second is the realisation that you are not the owner of this special architectural or historic interest building merely the present occupier, keeper. Third is the realisation that rules one and two can cost LOM.

-

[The Natural Philosopher]

They can make you knock it down and reuse the original materials.

The key to Grade II is that you MUST repair, not renew, unless there is no possible alternative. Cost benefit and 'it will look the same afterwards' cuts no ice.

Take some advice here. STOP until you have a firm clear agreement between the preservation people and the builder, and some firm quotes.

For some firms, listed work is a license to print money.

In your case, they will probably want all the original bricks cleaned up and replaced with the same crappy lime mortar that was originally used, preferably in the same locations too..yeah.. right!

I attended a meeting between a house owner, teh listing people and a building inspector once.

Hilarious. The staircase was rotten and had been removed.

Building control: "That staircase is currently inadequate and you cant revulid it, it wont meet current safete regulations"

Listing people:"that staircase is reparable: It must be restored and put back".

Building control: "But it still wont meet regulations"

Listing people: "But a repair is not a 'material alteration' and therefore doesn't come under building control"

The poor bloody house owner just stood their looking more and more miserable...

[mogga]

Or more sensibly before buying the place.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Its like teh arguments we had with council employyes ovvver why they had invested our money in known dodgy Icelandic banks.

"We didnt know they were dodgy" "well why don't you read the financial press: you are the treasurer" "I'm to busy to do that, someone else does that for me" "Oh, and why didnt they tell you?" "What they tell me is irrelevant: If Moodies give it a triple A rating it goes on our list of permitted investment vehicles, and we are simply supposed to pick the best rate of return"

So what you are saying is that if the system tells you to do something, even if you are given clear indications that its wrong, you will do it anyway?" "Yes"

I..e. No one gets fired foir losing £100M, they get fired if they don't

*follow the rules*.

Understanding this principle is the key to dealing with jobsworths. Produce a bit of paper that says XYZ, and their arses are covered.

If THEIR rules say that an engineers report is (no matter how bent to suit YOUR interests) what they need to be able to say 'I did my job' then give it to them.

There is a GHASTLY extension that lookes like a cedar portakabin stuck on a listed house here.

How di they get a 15 square meter pictire window in a cedar clad pill box past the planners?

simple. They got a bunch of architects and builders and loveys to all agree that it was of such extreme architectural merit, that it could be allowed.

All it takes is money, and enough paper to cover everyone's arse.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Indeed. I was looking at a rtather run down listed house..I got a fried ofa friend who was a museum consrevator to advise.

"£10,000 a room to fix that" he said.

I calculated the resale value of a reconditioned property, subtracted that sum and made an offer.

"But that is £40,000 less than the mortgage"

"I pity you"

[Huge]

Or more sensibly still, not buying the place. I wouldn't touch a listed property with a shitty stick.

[meow2222]

As has been said, no permission is needed for like for like repairs. But this means what it says - the same bricks to be reused if at all possible (if genuinely impossible then identical ones), the same mortar composition, etc, no changes permitted. If the mortar isnt plain white lime then you might need to do a mortar analysis to ensure you get the same mix.

However, as also said, it may be a good idea to run your detailed plans under the CO's nose to help get them on side for the future. Also it may be wise so they can pick up on any detail you may have overlooked - and its easily done.

Meanwhile I'm guessing you could do something to hold the stack in place temporarily while you're sorting the details out. Dont expect to do anything in a hurry on a listed building.

NT

[dom]

Repeat this mantra:

"It's a repair"

and to Building Control this mantra:

"It's pre-existing"

- and never offer *any* more information than you're legally obliged to give.

I think a structural engineer would be utter overkill for a chimney repair - unless it's exceptionally large or unusual.

The council bloke almost certainly isn't qualified (or experienced) to give an opinion on the safety of the chimney.

I doubt anyone that was, would give any sort of opinion without a close inspection. And Mrs Owner has no obligation to let them in to do an inspection - which rather means they would have no case against her if the builder says "it was an immediate danger".

Saying all that - I think planning for the most part do an excellent job of preventing the worst excesses from getting built (or our assets destroyed) and building control for the most part do an excellent job of making buildings safe.

The busybody round her house sounds like one where they could save us all a bit of council tax, by reducing his salary costs to zero.