Got a Sunseeker (solar power installation) leaflet through the door just now

[MM]

This makes the claim:

"Currently you can get a better rate of return by investing your savings into a Solar energy system rather than putting it in a bank account or an ISA."

Is this true?

MM

[Rick Hughes]

These companies are springing up everywhere .... doubt they will guarantee you any returns ............ my worry would be longevity of the product, along with drop in efficiency.

[Newshound]

Have you looked at interest rates recently?

[Bob Minchin]

It depends where you look. There are accounts paying 10% or more free of income tax but with an element of risk and some restrictions. But having solar panels installed carries risk too and has the major restriction that you can't get your capital back.

However the claim is quite correct with typically 10% per annum returns and index linked to RPI and not taxable.

Bob

[The Natural Philosopher]

Until there are energy riots in Whitehall, and all people with them selling their electricity at 10x the going rate get lynched, probably yes.

Until the bird shit, dust and lichen don't reduce the output by 90%, yes.

At least with a deposit account you can get the original sum out. The money you spent on solar is gone forever, as is the company whose Lifetime Guarantees looked so appealing, that installed it.

[MM]

Do you always perform exhaustive searches of Usenet before posting a new topic?

MM

[MM]

Yes, a week ago I spoke to a Nationwide FA. What has this got to do with Sunseeker's claim, though?

MM

[MM]

What accounts are these? My Nationwide FA didn't mention any paying

10% or more free of income tax when I spoke to him a week ago. The best he could offer was 2.75% for an Online ISA (new for 2011).

MM

[MM]

Yeah, that's kind of my take on it, too.

MM

[Another John]

I agree with you: I haven't noticed you here before, so this is a new topic for you. Unbeknown to you, it's the "hottest" topic for the last couple of months, owing to polarised views being held by a few of the Group's members.

(a) Is your roof of optimum nature? South-ish facing, 30-ish degrees slope, and not overshadowed by anything for most of the day?

(b) You can get SPV fitted by an energy company for 99 quid; you will get free electricity while the sun is shining (do you work, or are you retired? makes a difference), and the energy company will garner the profits generated by the panels on your roof -- which are there for 25 years: you lease your roof to them.

(c) If you have 10-14000 quids to spend, you can have SPV installed for yourself: you get the free electricity AND the profits generated. It looks like a foolproof way of investing your money, the interest on which can only increase over the years, as fuel prices go up.

(d) As others are pointing out, your 10-14000 quids are gone: you can hardly flog the system to someone else, if you decide you don't like it. And it won't add *that* much to the value of your house (despite its potentially great value to an incomer (if it's your system, not the energy company's)).

(e) The big unknowns are the reliability of the components (generally spoken of as being very reliable), and *of the installation*. There are also probably unknown unknowns.

(f) THE known known is that fuel prices will continue to rocket for whatever f****ing reason the energy companies decide to invent. (They didn't buy an energy company in order to provide a public service, you know!)

(g) That's about it as far as I can see.

I am havering, as I have said here recently. I do have the cash (part of my retirement lump sum). But when you retire you are no longer generating money: you have a survival income. I will never re-generate those 000s, as one does re-generate large sums over time, when working.

I think the main questions for me are: will I be saving, in fuel bills, over the next "n" years, more than I have spent on SPV? And will my roof (50 years old, crappy concrete tiles) outlive the installation? I'm naturally conservative, and may chicken out.

HTH John

[Bob Minchin]

Well NW FAs wouldn't.They only peddle NW products. As far as I know, NW don't offer that sort of product. Ask an IFA about Structured Investment Products or do the searching yourself. Barclays used to do good ones but they have lost the plot recently IMHO with returns in the 7% region and more restrictive terms. Investec were offering 10.5% but the offer closed yesterday. I'm waiting to see what their new offer is going to be. Good deals are out there if you look.

[Dave Liquorice]

Absoluely critical, note that the rated figures for a panel will be for optmal exposure, ie inclination and azimuth.

I can see this being a real profits raiser for solicitors when coming to sell the property. A great way for the buyers solicitor ask questions and dig into the small print...

I don't understand that sentance in context of a PV system purchase. How can you get interest on money you don't have? The FITs rates only go up in line with one of the price index's (RPI or CPI can't remember which).

I think any "added house value" is pretty neutral overall and will vary greatly on what the installation does to the look of the property and how well it has performed in the past (output and maintenace), assuming a buyer has the knowledge to interpret the figures.

Agreed, energy prices will rise and out of proportion to other prices rises in other sectors.

It's a tricky balance, but if you are going to be home and actually using most of the "free" lecky and get paid for it. Build a spread sheet to model what happens with various year on year fuel price rises. Say 5% 10% and 15%, the hard bit might be getting sensible daytime consumption figures. Get one of the electricity monitoring things that can log over decent period of time your real consumption and have the abilty to down load that data to computer for proper analysis (not all can or only give a summary).

The FITs should pay for it in around 10 years. The "free" lecky is a bonus.

Maybe it's time to get the roof redone and fit a PV system that isn't panels that sit above the existing roof surafce but actually form the roof. You'd have to do more research into those systems and what happens if a panel/tile goes phut. It's easy to replace a "sit on" panel not so easy to replace a propritary panel that is part of the roof 10 years down the line when they are no longer made...

[Tony Bryer]

Yes, a 20-year warranty on the panel, return to sender, is going to leave you with a significant bill if you have to get someone in to diagnose which panel is faulty, remove it and replace it.

That's probably less of a worry - lots of Wates and other 1930s houses in the SW London area have concrete roof tiles which whilst faded are still perfectly sound (unlike many clay tiled roofs of the same era). IIRC Redland and Marley now guarantee their tiles for 100 years.

[MM]

Yes, that helps a lot. Don't you agree that at the moment the industry in general has found a licence to print money?

MM

[MM]

I'm waiting (in vain, of course) for house builders *in general* to incorporate solar in their new builds any which way they can, so that the whole concept ceases to be strange, novel, esoteric as many people believe. It should be standard, just as an inside toilet is.

Earlier, John made the point that it matters whether one is at home retired or out all day. Well, I'm retired, but during the day I don't use much electricty during the summer months when any solar power generated will be higher than compared to winter.

Why don't we build new nuclear power stations and bring down the cost of electricity? Something will have to be done soon. This year the oil tank refill will be around 40% (forty!!) more than 2010 and one never knows from one day to the next what the trend is. Further, on oil, last winter there was such an outcry over heating oil, especially concerning the Irish company behind Boiler Juice being mentioned a lot, that the government said it would now look into the pricing of domestic heating oil to see whether gouging was happening. What have we heard from the inquiry? Bugger all.

MM

[js.b1]

Inverters suck in terms of reliability & replacement cost.

An issue is replacement of any roof covering. It is quite possible for a roof to be fine now - but in 20yrs time a re-roof may become necessary either due to water penetration at eaves or insisted on before money is paid out under an equity release scheme.

Subsidising PV in this outrageously expensive manner is pretty unique in the world. It is quite literally replacing the fading DG market with PV market.

Aside, it is quite possible that energy prices fall somewhere H2-2011 to H2-2012. I would also state it is very very likely that price rises long term are going to be more severe due to #1 Melons, #2 Wind Subsidy, #3 PV Subsidy. I think we may see an average bill of =A32000 by 2015 and over =A33000 by 2020, sadly.

Realise inflation is being utilised "opportunistically" by suppliers currently - BT is putting prices up 5% and so the chain continues. Not noticed the BoE requiring restraint by companies over price rises :-) Then again its forecast is always "2% by the end of the year"... using inflation to erode the debt (the whole point) is going to leave a stinking big Gov't liability for Index Linked securities. Likewise Insurers are waking up to new money making schemes, bills broadly are going up sharply.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Why? remove the legal incentives and its a total waste of money. Far better to have a south facing picture window, really good insulation, triple glazing and thermal recovery ventilation.

precisily so.

Gimme a nuclear aga. Ill take all those decay heat rods from Fuku, lead line the aga, and they can sit there making the room warm for the next

60 years.

[Tim Streater]

In cash terms to *you*, possibly so, due to the market distortion. In cost terms to *society as a whole*, what you've done is a waste of society's resources, and therefore likely to be a bad deal for society as far as CO2 is concerned.

So you're just a leech.

[The Natural Philosopher]

In a nutshell. Yes.

Bit like buying a plasma TV for your second home on expenses. It may be legal but we all know its just a way of spending someone else's money selfishly.

[Dave Liquorice]

This is true but when one fails and needs replacing in 10 years time will that same physical size/shape and matching electrical output be available. I don't see these things "standing still" like a Marley pan tile...