Foul drains - how bad is bad enough to need fixing

[Tim Watts]

Hi,

Quick recap: I have a shared private sewer in my garden - 6" clay pipe, I and 3 other houses make use of it. From me it goes to the main sewer.

A CCTV survey (as a result of a blockage) showed 3 points of root ingress and one break with a lateral displacement of the pipe.

The root balls are fine clumps about 20-30% of the pipe CSA.

The lateral break looks to be about 1/2 to 1" - hard to tell on the video, but enough to stop me rodding them and enough to make the bloke's jetting harder and definately the cause of one of the blockages.

Long and short - insurers will pay, but want the 3 other households to cough up nearly 700 quid each. One guy has no excess and is covered so he's in the clear, the other 2 are still checking but obviously worried.

Some of them are complaining (ironically including the guy who it won't cost a bean), basically saying "why do you need them fixed" and "all clay drains have roots and leak a bit".

My gut instinct is roots are just likely to get worse, and the lateral shifted break definately needs fixing and not fixing all of the 4 problems will just become a source of grief in the future.

I do have an insurance excess, but by the time I have submitted the costs of the original CCTV and the jetting to the isnurers who will cover that too, I'm not going to be any worse off - 500 quid down either way.

I do feel sorry if either of the remain 2 people aren't covered.

What do you all think - is it unreasonable to want to get roots and a cracked joint fixed?

Cheers

Tim

PS

Similar posted to uk.l.m for position on legalities of leaking foul water into the ground.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I can see all sides.

If it ain't fixed, will your neighbours cover costs of all clearing needed?

If so point out that one fix will sort it forever. And it shouldn't cost that much actually.

Mini digger and a couple of blokes for a couple of days? Less than a grand surely?

I am not sure, but I suspect spilling foul sewage into the subsoil is actually against some law or other, too.

The great thing about plastic pipes laid in shingle, is they don't leak, so don't attract tree roots, and that there is a fair amount of leeway against further lateral shifts. Also the trenching operation itself will smash up any tree roots nearby.

Which buys you 10-15 years of almost guaranteed trouble free operation.

Personally I would do whatever it takes to get it fixed.

But I suspect there will always be a neighbour who claims its not his problem.

Possibly you could just fix your own drains, and leave his unfixed.

[Tim Watts]

The fix will be done by the insurer's contractors who did they own CCTV and agreed on every point that my contractor found with the fist CCTV,

My guys said about 2 days for the break as it's under a hedge with some heavy roots to fight through.

The other 3 root ingresses could be fixed, they said, with epoxy tubed patch liners and no digging - something like 200-300 per patch.

I suspect so - hence the post to uk.l.m

I;m not sure if my insurer's contractors aim to patch the faults or replace the entire pipe. I'll ask them next week.

Extracting the money doesn't seem to be an issue. It's all up to my insurer who says they will ask the Environment Agency to server Section

59 notices against anyone who doesn't cooperate, so I'm out of the loop on that.

But as I have to live here, I would like a decent argument that supports me not appearaing unreasonable...

2 of the problems are in teh section I make use of of the shared pipe.

The other is above my connection, but that is potentially leaking under my lawn and if it blocks up there, it's my garden that goes brown, not his - so I'm not awfully happy.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Er no, more likely to go green..

[Tim Watts]

On 11/09/10 11:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote: The other is above my connection, but that is potentially leaking

No, brown. You see, just up from the affected section is a chamber which due to the slope will overflow upon blockages and run back down towards my house! ;-O

[dom]

One day, probably over the Xmas holiday season (when everyone has guests, and more kitchen waste/fat than usual goes down the drain), it will thoroughly block up - no-one will want a call-out, and everyone's dunny will back up.

I wouldn't hesitate to get it done, plastic all the way through, and you have the most convenient excuse of buck-passing the expense imposed on your neighbours, on the environment agency.

[Martin Pentreath]

Clearly if you own a house you have to take responsibility for getting things fixed every so often. I seem to remember reading as a minimum you should budget 1% of the house value per annum for maintenance. Anyway, spending =A3700 once in a lifetime to sort the drains out seems like a bargain to me, even if the insurance won't pay a penny, and frankly they're just being mean and slightly irresponsible. But I don't suppose telling them that will help diplomatic relations!

[Tabby]

I'd definitely get the pipe replaced. Roots in there mean its close to a total block, and more roots can come in any day. Plastic should get you a lifetime's troublefree service.

NT

[Dave Baker]

As I've advised in uk.l.m just wait until next year and the water company will fix it at their own expense once all private sewers get adopted, assuming the legislation goes through.

[Tim Watts]

I agree with this and the neighbouring replies...

Personally if it goes to the insurers, I hope they dig it all up[1] or line it entirely (which is effectively giving me a new plastic pipe *and continuous* inside the old one).

[1] Except that a run goes under the old knackered but full of stuff shed. That could be a pain, but it would still be worth the effort...

People round here don't really like spending money - you can tell by the state of the few private roads! Anyway, easy of course for them to say, 'cos it'll be me having to do it as it will either be my garden, or the pavement running with richards...

[Tim Watts]

Any idea on when I can count on it either being passed or rejected as legislation? The consulation ends Oct 2010...

If it is Oct/Nov this year, I guess I could wait. If it will take until next year to find out, I suspect it will jeapodise my insurance claim to withdraw the claim[1] then try and make it again next year if this falls through...

[1] Not to mention, if there are legal obligations with leaking foul water or the insurance company are worried about my house foundations, then they might insist of doing it asap anyway.

[Steve Firth]

This is simply your neighbours applying a combination of wishful thinking and "out of sight, out of mind". Broken clay drains will never miraculously heal themselves and root balls will only get worse. Once a tree or shrub has found a source of easily available water it will put extra effort into extracting that water. Eventually the roots will fill the drain.

The price that you have been quoted is very reasonable. Since it is shared drainage they are under an obligation to pay. End of.

[Cicero]

==============================================================================

Some water authorities have assumed that the legislation will go ahead and have acted accordingly by surveying/mapping the existing drainage system. My authority (Severn Trent) recently did this just a few months ago - cleared my sewer and its tributaries and mapped it to their onboard computer.

You could ask your water authority if they can help in any way. As far as the repair is concerned, it's not going to mend itself and it can only get worse so replacement seems the only reasonable solution.

Cic.

[John Rumm]

ISTM that none of these problems will go away or improve with time. Tree roots will tend to ingress further and cause ever more blockages etc. Not being able to rod them will become a major PITA. The fact that the drain is under your property means its you who will ultimately suffer the grief of disruption when they do become unserviceable.

There is also the further consideration of what happens to the water than escapes from the drains. Clay soils (although I guess you might just be into chalk?) can suffer "heave" which can do further structural damage to adjacent properties.

[John Rumm]

But grass likes that! (I can tell when the entrance trap to my septic tank is blocked - the adjacent grass suddenly gets all lush!

[MuddyFork]

My opinion is that it needs fixing. It's likely to get worse over time, and it may be more difficult to get insurance companies to accept responsiblity in future if you turn down the oportunity to get it fixed now. If you want to change insurers in future, you would probably have to tell them about the pre-existing problem.

I don't know how close the leak is to the foundations of nearby buildings - that could be another reason to get it fixed.

In my experience of getting a shared private sewer fixed, the insurance companies and their appointed maintenance contractor were quite good at dealing with the various neighbours, so you might want to let them take the flak rather than get involved in potentially heated discussions with the neighbours yourself.

[Tim Watts]

I know this in my guts - but it's good to hear it from a few other folk

- ta.

That's fine - once I believe I'm right I can out-stubborn a mule. Or hide and let the insurers/EA deal with it...

[Dave Baker]

Hmmmm. No one has an obligation to pay anything unless under legal sanction or contract. A neighbour could quite properly argue that it's the OP's tree roots that have created the problem and he should have mitigated that risk himself. Also the only way anyone can even compel the damaged sewer to be fixed is if either the water authority or Health and Safety of the local council issue a Statutory Notice on health grounds under specific legislation. Whether a small leak or tree roots constitute such a health risk is an unknown and in practice most old drains and sewers are going to leak somewhere or other without the slightest impact on anyone nearby.

My own shared sewer does and has blocked several times over the last 20 years when the neighbours put something stupid down there such as the baby wipes the daft bint next door used to flush away and even worse the sanitory towels she couldn't be arsed to put in a bin. With both those problems eradicated it only blocks once every few years and as it's adopted I just get the water board out to fix it for free. There's clearly tree roots or some other snag because it always blocks in exactly the same spot but it's nowhere near enough of a problem for me to want to dig it all up or have it lined.

If I were the OP I'd leave it well alone too unless it blocks constantly. An easier course of action might be to tell all the neighbours there are snags in the drain and not to put anything down their loos that could catch on them. Problem solved. Then in a year's time let the water company fix it all once the sewer has been adopted under the new legislation.

[<me9]

Is it certain that it's going ahead? it was the baby of the last govt.

I hope it does, My manholes, (although second in the run) seem to be the lowest in the system. I currently have them sealed. Next door down now usually gets the outflow.

[Steve Firth]

Where one's drains exit via another neighbour's property (as in this case) such a sanction exists. If the neighbours don't want to pay he should have his own drain repaired and then cap off the drain where it enters his land. That should cause the stingy bastards to re-think their attitude.