Andy Hall snipped-for-privacy@hall.nospam typed
No, she calls me Mr Wonderful, I call her Miss Perfect, im sure you needed to know that. :)
Ahh no, the base plate is not bent, the operator is putting too much downward pressure on the handle, which is distorting the flimsy badly designed base. (You only get what you pay for applies here.)
The real question is, could someone who is aware of this tools limitations achieve a straight cut. ?
Bear in mind that the DIY FAQ is a stand-alone website and some visitors (probably a majority) have never visited uk.d-i-y. I know this because they email snipped-for-privacy@diyfaq.org.uk directly for assistance. Therefore I think an introduction discussing uk.d-i-y is not appropriate; the main FAQ has an intro covering that. Keep it to power tools.
I also support bigcat/NT's point about waffle, though that word is a bit strong, and his severe snipping perhaps overstates it in relentlessly hammering the point home. I would say the content is as John has it is generally fine, but it needs precis-ing to make it more readable. It reads like a bit like a learned paper; I previously called it 'too formal'. Andy says it is a matter of style, which I don't argue with, and I'll be happy to receive whatever style John as author finishes up using. Comments are for him to act on as he sees fit.
The main purpose of a FAQ is to impart the information directly. Pointers about where to get more info (e.g. uk.d-i-y) should come nearer the end.
A reader first coming to a FAQ wants to know if it is relevant to him (or her). He does not want to read 1/2 of it in order to find it is not. So, is this FAQ going to be help a newbie to know in what areas he can benefit from some power? Does it have some nitty-gritty advice for a seasoned diy-er who knows he wants a certain tool and is it looking for advice on what features to look for? Does it contain a run-down on available makes and point out the good, bad and ugly? Of these, which section carries the main emphasis?
All this should be answered in the first few paragraphs, otherwise many will not progress further.
The reader knows what DIY is! He is reading this FAQ because he wants to know about Power Tools, and is keen enough to have already found the DIY FAQ, or perhaps googled on 'power tools'.
That reminds me, how about adding a keyword section to help google to classify it properly?
Isn't this £5-£500 an exaggeration for 'similar looking' tools? I can believe the range (I think) but I would expect them to look a lot different, one end from the other. A £20 B&Q router looks a lot different to a £300 one, and that's only 15:1.
The reader know that - that is why he is here.
Almost everything down to this point is for the newbie. Our more experienced readers will be giving up. They need a heading they can jump to from the top (it will become a jump link in the html).
Useful checklist for experienced diy-ers. Mostly over the head of newbies.
This mainly for newbies, in the following. Pros might pick up some hints too.
Quite a few pros will find the section below interesting and probably useful too. But it might fit better under "All about Different Tools".
?givens?, yeuch!! jargon.
If there is a link to this point (and there will be) it is where I reckon most will jump first. Is there any way it can be brought nearer the top of the document, rather than the in last 1/4?
I am coming to the view that we really have two FAQs here, or at least 2 major sections. The first section is all about the market and (with the exception of cordless) does not address any specific tool. It explains what power-tools are in general and how they are graded across the market.
The second section (below here) is where someone would head if they actually want to buy a tool to get some specific job done, or to find out if a tool exists which would make their life easier. I appreciate that many blanks are yet to be filled in!
If the FAQ is divided into two sections like that, most of the comments above would evaporate, because the reader would clearly see the distinction and go to the part that addresses their immediate concern.
Links to manufacturers etc would be useful.
Can you explain the body colour significance? Do they promote the colour as a distinguishing mechanism, or is it just today's fashion colour?
It would be helpful to explain what this extra "range of things you might do" is.
This doesn't seem to offer an extra "range of things you might do", just more accuracy.
I suggest "Blades can be changed without the need for Allen keys", as
What is it about the high-end jigsaw that overcomes the deficiencies listed for the low end one.
Tables for mounting saw, router.
Work Centres
We are presumably not trying to cover fixed workshop tools like thicknessers, spindle cutters?
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Oh dear, I am in agreement with IMM. Not with the "Nothing wrong with the saw" bit though - it certainly looks flimsy. I'm going to lie down in a dark room now.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Can you take some tablets as well.
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I don't think that adequately covers it when you look back at the number of discussions that happen just as a result of a gulf in understanding.
For somone who only ever does minor jobs it may never occur to them that DIYers take on jobs that to them are things "only builders should do".
I added this in response to coment on the first draft (needless to say I am not going to please everyone here)
For many it would seem to be a key motivation - certainly one that will push them in to more "serious" DIY (and hence choice of tool).
Don't think it is, in the sense that recognising the two classes of tool will immediatly tell you a fair bit about what you can expect.
I will reply to this here, as several folks have mentioned it.
The assumption seems to be that service and support will only ever be required should the tool break and need fixing. I think this is a too narrow view.
What if I want to get a replacement rip fence for my circular saw? If it was a B&D or bosch it would be simple enough given a helpful retailer. For a shed special probably impossible. The argument that the tool is cheap enough does not seem to hold water in this case.
True, but if they are reading the FAQ chances are they have found us, or will do shortly ;-)
Axminster would be a good example... in that they will go the extra mile for customers. I would anticipate more luck getting a replacement rip fence for one of their "white" circular saws than from B&Q for example.
What would you want to see it cover?
Sure it could... then again we are not writing a text book here.
True, sometimes it is a case they will replace a bunch of similar tools in one go - some will be better than others.
Yup - worth adding somewhere I think
If I want to buy new battey for a Makita drill it will be much the same cost as had I have bought it with the drill... If I want one for a "challenge extreame" it will cost the same as a new drill and what is more will come with one!
Then you will know that it is quite easy to drain a well matched NiCd pack at 2kW for example...
The trade of (on better tools) is between power and run time - you can have all the power you want if you don't mind a 5 min battery life
Not compared to a decent 18V high end tool. There is also the point to bear in mind that once it has enough torque to snap a 6" screw, more is not going to be of much practical use.
Exactly what I would avoid budget cordless tools.
There is also a huge difference between the worst and best of bread...
The main thing a mains drill (for example) will give you over a top end cordless is endurance. If you want to run a wire brush for an hour and a half then mains is the way to go.
Poor quality NiCd packs have a frightening auto discharge rate. Fully charge them and two weeks later they will be flat.
Depends on what you mean by less. For a budget tool the cells will likely cost more than the whole tool.
Yup...
Yup fair point, I was not considering the folks who arrive at the FAQ directly.
I will rewrite some sections and see where I can go with them... I don't fancy cutting it down to NT's suggested level of terseness since I don't think that will serve the newbie that well
Yup, I think I need to start working on the structure and organisation, plus add an "executive summary" to direct readers to the relevant (to them) sections.
agreed
Does he know what DIY "is" though? He may need some info to put his own vision of DIY into a larger perspective.
yup can do...
Depends on the tool I guess.... for a SDS drill then probably, for a sliding mitre saw then no (not that you will get one for a fiver yet).
Depends on what you know about routers I suppose.
Yup, was not too sure as to the best place for that bit... there is also lots more detail on batteries that could go in, (cell matching and implications of etc) but I don't think it adds to the message
;-) yup might lose that...
In a web format, yup easy - the class titles can be hot linked to the descriptions etc, the brand groups could be boxed out from the main text which flows round it etc.
The next draft I may do on the web anyway so as to play with some of these dears
yup
I was thinking of the way that Bosch for example have DIY tools that are green (and of variable quality), and a pro range which is blue and on the whole pretty good, etc. Wicks do grey bodied stuff which tends to be decent brands badged for them, while the other colours (black mostly) can be any old tat.
I did hint at that (i.e. cut smooth and fast and in straight line... I was kind of leaving the factoring the imprecations of that new found ability to the reader)
You more examples would be good. The basic answer is stuff you would not do with a low end jigsaw because the quality of finish matters, you need a straight cut, it would take too long etc.
Rigidity of design, accuracy of alignment of parts, accurate blade support, decent effort made with the counter balancing of the mechanism to reduce vibration, attention to detail like blowers etc, soft start, feedback speed control, soft shoe covers, rip fence or beam trammel attachment bush, motor rated for endurance and continuous use, better dust extraction capabilities (i.e. some!), balance
Not yet - another FAQ or section perhaps.... it is also not so much of a newbie area.
I don't think he meant it as verbatim copy ;-)
8< snippity snip >8I quite like Word's outline mode for that. Quite easy to drag whole sections around, promote, demote etc. It does have a use!
8< snippity snip >8Agreed. It is quite a difficult job to interweave these threads from differing perspectives. Hot-links should help, as you say (later).
8< snippity snip >8Not a lot - that's why he's here ;-)
8< snippity snip >8OK. (dears/ideas??)
8< snippity snip >8It's just that you put the colour in brackets. I (the reader) am not sure if they just happen to be that colour, or if Bosch etc really call them their Green Pro Range, or whatever. I don't want to march up to a trade counter boldly saying "I want an xyz from their green pro range" only to be told they are yellow this year. Its a trivial point - forget it.
I was looking for 'how the better performance is achieved', so that if you say it is by e.g. having a sturdy sole plate, I can make a point of checking the sturdiness of one I am buying. This is so I can pick up a tool in a shop and check if it seems to have the pro features without actually having to use it to see if it can cut straight and true. Mind you, a dealer that would lend you one to try out as well would be nice - some hopes!
This may be getting too detailed, but are there specific examples of what tasks can be done ok with a cheap one and a good one. I have a cheapo jigsaw and its OK for hacking out cutouts for pipes under my sink. Using it to cut some chipboard flooring to fit round a projection produced some wavy cuts though - not that it mattered much, the skirting covered it.
Not possessing a pro jigsaw, just how is a tool-less blade fixed in?
8< snippity snip >8Great, that's the sort of thing.
Doesn't have to be; the pros can hot-link straight to it. Who knows, someone with experience of these supertoys might feel like penning something.
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
perhaps youre right (grudgingly :)
dramatically.
that idea is covered below with the 3 headings, budget, midrange, topend. But its your faq, not mine.
retailer.
ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts or repair are available for budget tools.
yes, i spose my point was that they might think they need to run to a tool merchant when really speaking to us will inform/confuse them fairly thoroughly. I would pick ukdiy before a tool merchant anyway.
example.
gotcha
hmm... I guess just briefly the pros and cons of hire vs buy, and really i think it needs to be honest, hire tools are the most unreliable of all tool types.
Hire:
- highest incidence of duff or faulty tools and blades
- if the work goes over time, you usually pay more.
- 2 journeys for the tool instead of one
- significant deposit usually required
Buy:
- Lower cost less rugged tools
Check: compare prices, sometimes buying is the clear winner, sometimes hiring is.
yep... I'd bet theyre replacing them for a reason though, ie too many complaints.
heh, yup
properly
you could, but you usually dont get it.
otoh a 2.4v screwdriver couldnt snap a 3mm thick 1" screw. Many readers will be considering this sort of tool, because they know no better.
price,
bread...
yes, you seem to be thinking more of better quality kit with your comments, me more of budget to midrange, which is what I expected most faq readers to be considering. I guess this all needs explaining a bit more then.
Somewhere in this, People do need to get just how limited low end codless tools are. They can be a big disappointment.
That certainly is a major difference. So is power. Just look at the size of the motor. I tend to use mains drills for screwing if there are many screws involved, as theyre far faster and have far more torque. Both at the same time. You just can not get that with a little motor.
With all the comments in this thread, it will be a well honed faq I think.
NT
Look at Which? report to find the best hire shops. Or ask here.
Work always does - Fri night to Mon morning is usually at a special cheap rate. Sometimes get a good deal if you pick it up late in the day. Make sure they will give you the proper rate for time actually used if you run over time.
Be prepared (even expect?) to take it back and demand a replacement/money back. Allow time for this.
Major advantage. Main reason I have for hiring vs buying for certain items is lack of storage space for bulky items like scaffold tower, big kango, cement mixer....
Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
Yup got a bit click happy in the spell checker there.... (did I accidentally click on dears there? Oh well CBA to go back and look!)
I would guess if you went into a tool shop and asked for a blue Bosch they would know what you were on about, if you asked the same question in Homebase however they may look at you funny (since it should be obvious that they are all green!) ;-)
Bosch themselves do distinguish quite clearly between the ranges, for an example see:
That is the killer test really. With the jigsaw you can perhaps see the sole plate and if it has a non scratching clip over cover etc. But all the other factors only become apparent when you use it.
Oh, thought of a good one... making patterns that you will use to guide a router.
Another example:
I wanted a radiator shelf in my dining room that would match the general shaping of the table etc. This oval ish, but with the occasional little flourish or pointy bit. I had a nice bit of hardwood ready, and carefully marked out all the curves such that it would have a bow front, plus some corner details. At the time the only jigsaw I has was a 30 quid B&D "nothing special" one. It was just about possible to cut out the shape I had marked, but the finish left much to be desired. since I was going to be using the edge I had just cut with a bearing guided cutter on a router it was important to get the quality of the finish as high as possible since every tiny mark or undulation in the cut surface would be picked up by the router and copied into the final profile. Hence many hours of careful sanding were needed to get a surface good enough to use. Had I have had my Makita jigsaw then it would have been a very much more straight froward job: cut, quick sand, route.
Wavy cuts are a good example - it is hard to do a long cut that is not with that type of tool. Part of this is that the lack of blade guide accuracy means it wanders off line and you need to keep dialling in adjustments to get back on track. With the better tool, it is that much better at going where you want it to in the first place. I guess it is a case with a jigsaw that even small errors in accuracy get multiplied quite fast by the nature of the thing.
You see the little lugs at the top of the blade:
snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk wrote: > ok. This can be said in one sentence. Normally no replacement parts > or repair are available for budget tools.
They're cheap. They will do the job. If they blow up before their guarantee is up, get a refund or replacement. If they don't blow up, they may well be OK for a long while. **** This is uk.d-i-y, not uk.i.come.over.my.expensive.tools!**** This really does need to be born in mind. Deriding someone who buys an adequate £30 tool for a little bit of DIY where a £300 one is available is ridiculous.
Don't think anyone has derided a genuine enquiry. Banter is a different thing.
Thing is I've often bought a cheap power tool thinking it would be fine for what I need, but often end up replacing it with a good one afterwards when I realise what I'm missing. A prime example of this is a jigsaw - cheap ones are very inaccurate as opposed to only slightly inaccurate with a decent one. :-) Same with routers. Compound mitre saws. Etc.
However, if you're unsure how much use a certain type of tool might be to you, an entry level priced one might help you decide without investing too much.
Of course, if all you need to do is drill the occasional hole in wood, pretty well anything will do.
I hope you will find that my FAQ section does not attempt to deride any point of view, if you think it does then feel free to highlight where.
Think through the implications though of "no replacement parts". It does neccisarily not mean it "broke" in a big way and needs fixing/replacing, you may just you want to replace a bit you, lost, or bent. Say you need a new backing pad for your sander because you ripped it on a nail you did not see sticking out. The tool may have cost 30 quid, but £30 for a new backing pad because buying a whole new tool is the only way to get it seems pricey to me. Say you had bought the £40 mid range offering from Bosch, or B&D, then you would be able to pick up replacement backing pads easily enough.
LOL!
I have the version of this saw without the laser. I've used it and thought it was fairly good and am quite pleased with it. It came with an extra finer toothed blade.
The going rate for a cheap saw like the Challenge is around £25-30, though for £40 you can get an entry level Skil. The Skil only has a
40mm depth of cut, though being smaller is less unwieldy.I'd like to hear what sort of circular saw people have, what they have used it for and what it's good/not good at.
cheers, Pete.
saying what it is.
without
maybe you can describe 2 typical sole plates, 1 pressed steel 2mm thick, one cast ali x mm thick. Without this, newbies buying really havent got any clue how to interpret what constitutes a sufficiently solid sole plate and what doesnt.
NT
Being on the web and all, we could even include a photo! (or is that going against the spirit of the FAQ?)
did someone do that?
NT
No, NT, not really in the FAQ - however the group is, I have noticed rife with such comment, and I detected a spill-over of hoity-toityness in the FAQ which is up for review. No offence, but it's a bit long- winded and pompous for my taste, too.
And all this c*ck about "Ooh-er, if it goes wrong, you won't be able to get spares or service". If you're doing a bit of DIY, it won't matter much. If you're a tradesman (don't forget this *is* uk.d-i-y) and your expensive tool breaks, you will be able to get it serviced. If it's the only one you've got, though, you'll be fsck'd, which is why the tradesman has two expensive tools, or at least some sort of backup!
BTW what on earth are you using for posting these days?
hoity-toityness
On reflection I think you might possibly be right a little bit. The FAQ needs to recognise that most diyers actually do buy 'dumbell' quality tools, and needs to address those just as much as the better q stuff. The tools I have are a mixture across the quality range, from Very-Best to what-the-hell-is-that, and I do this for business. They do include some stuff that has been much scoffed about here, in some cases rightly, and in some cases quite wrongly. If the faq is going to guide people on buying tools it does need to be realistic in this respect.
I doubt I'm alone in this, and I'll bet you many who are well into the subject have a range of kit, covering everything from top notch to crude. Maybe its changing consumer attitudes these days, and I'm one of the old school of thinking.
Dont forget as well this faq is for the whole country, not just the rich areas, but also the places where kids still play in the street with no shoes, fences are built from scrap or nothing, and shops sell
40 year old power drills for =A33.
Bear in mind that putting it in html format will break it into much shorter sections, and make it much more digestible.
backup!
indeed, i just hope it will be said directly and to the point instead of in 8 paragraphs. If I want to read about tools, I want to read about tools. Not the state of the building industry, what countries which tools come from, and not read points 3 times with junk padding.
a pigeon.
NT
Old tools turn up for silly prices sometimes, and sometimes are a real bargain, even though their usefulness is generally more limited.
Another reason for a few words on old tools is that many readers will have kit from way back when and will want to know what the new stuff does that the old doesnt. Eg maybe someone has a drill but is having a problem drilling the concrete walls, they'll want to know what difference in features they will need to look for in a new drill - and possibly, as I hinted, what tricks they can use to get the old one to do it. After all, we did drill everything in the days before hammer drills.
NT
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