Fixing Celotex to walls

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On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:53:04 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

Welcome to the world of very happy SDS drill owners!
PoP
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:15:26 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

As suggested I'd go with a cheap SDS and drill where it's suitable rather than trying to pick up the joints.
Plugging into the mortar will be ok as long as it's good and sound.
You could also use Gripfill (green tube) to 'glue' the battens to the wall? I think the stuff is brilliant and for me the test for how well something is likely to stick is how easy it is to clean off yer fingers / tools! They also do a white version that's a bit more like 'No more nails'. It's not as 'sticky' but is low (no) odour and surplus can be wiped off with a damp rag. I wouldn't use it for this job though.
Forget 'no more nails' .. should have been called 'you still need to use nails' !
Cut the batten to length and cut some spare lengths of batten to reach across the shed to (gently) wedge the batten against the wall whilst it's gluing.
Run a bead of Gripfill up the batten and put into place (you have time for adjustment but it's neater to be pretty close first go). Press the batten against the wall to spread the Gripfill and then pop in yer 'props'. 20 mins later you can remove the props to use them for the next batch.
Stealth batten fixing . ;-)
All the best ..
T i m
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:12:46 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
One important statistic not shown in that list is the weight of the SDS drill. Most of the cheap ones are about 5Kg in weight - okay for short jobs but you'd soon know about it if you had to hold it up all day long. I've got one of these - it's quite acceptable because my drilling tends to be either low down, or at a higher level just the occasional use.
For the average DIYer I would expect the heavier drill to be perfectly okay. But for professionals it most likely wouldn't be.
I understand the more expensive ones are in the region of 2Kg.
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:36:04 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

I think that a lot depends on what you want to use the shed for and whether you want to fix things to the battens or to clad it in ply or something.
If you don't really need to fix anything to it, then you might as well skip the screws and simply stick the cladding to the wall with Gripfill. You could then stick a thin ply to the front if you want to protect it slightly.
If you want something slightly more substantial, then you could do as you are suggesting. Simply use a long masonry drill and drill through the Celotex into the wall. You can then remove the sheet and insert the plugs. Replace the sheet and carefully locate the screws through the battens and the sheet. The problem with this method is that it won't support very much if you are trying to do that because the Celotex will tend to crush if you overtighten the fixings and in any case mechanically speaking you will have the battens effectively stood off from the wall on screws by the thickness of the Celotex - it won't give any support. Therefore it is not going to be a good method if you are looking to fit heavy shelves.
I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally, I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it does allow some with the floor). An alternative would have been to bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.
For the roof I didn't need to fix anything to it, so I used long drywall screws with large washers to fix the Celotex to the rafters.
.andy
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Andy,
I want to do something similar and had wondered why you used the framing method (found in the archive). Now I understand.
Do I need ventilation for the airgap behind the celotex?
Is there another airgap between the celotex and the plywood or do you fit the celotex flush with the outer face of the battens?
The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?
Andrew
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You can, but if you have the height available, Jablite is cheaper for this application.
Christian.
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On 17 Feb 2004 01:50:42 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@sheerstock.fsnet.co.uk (Andrew) wrote:

It's probably a good idea. As a general principle, putting wood in a potentially damp and unventilated space is not a good plan. Because of the construction of my garage, I was able to incorporate ventilation quite easily. The overhang of the roof provides quite generous horizontal soffits under the eaves. The roof uses trussed frames similar to house construction. I fitted Celotex to the inner surface of the rafters - I could have fitted some between and some on top, but it was enough of a PITA to fit the stuff up there anyway that I didn't mind losing about 50mm of depth up there. This created a space behind the depth of the rafters to ventilate the them. I then boarded on top of the joists to form a storage area but only up to the roof Celotex. The wall framing was arranged so that there was an air gap at the top meeting the gap behind the roof Celotex. I then fitted soffit vents into the soffits between each pair of rafters on both sides of the (apex) roof. This gives a ventilated space common behind roof and walls.
I did a simple test using smoke matches held against holes cut in the final wall on a mildly windy day. It was blown in and out, so I think that the ventilation is effective enough.
An alternative would be to chop an air brick into the wall, I suppose.
For belt and braces, I used pressure treated timber for the framing as well. A good and cheap source of this is a timber mill that makes fencing materials, although it can be obtained at a normal merchant.

No. The Celotex is fitted flush with the front surface of the framing. I then taped it using the metalised tape, to cover the joins from sheet to sheet and to the battens. In a few places where there were small holes and gaps as a result of the garage construction, I used foam filler.
I then fitted the ply to the framing using drywall screws and painted it.

I debated the idea. The problem for me is that the height from floor to joists is only about 2400mm and I didn't want to lose any of that. Also, I will want to move heavy things in and out on occasions so I don't really want a step at the front.
I had done the heat loss calculations for the building and the floor was the least of the losses. Now of course it's the most, but not substantial.

.andy
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Dig a trench around the garage and insert foam insulation against the garage walls and then back fill. This will prevent the cold earth acting as a large heat sink extracting heat from the garage walls and floor. This is also a very good idea with the main house too.
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That would take a hell of a lot of those cans though, wouldn't it?

The heat would still travel downwards though. Plus I'd have to dig up the drive, and that would not be cost effective.

Exposing the foundations and putting foam round them..... Hmm.
.andy
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wrote:

garage
In winter the frost line is about 2 for deep. The foundation walls will be deeper than that. The earth directly beneath the garage will be warmer than earth at the surface.

Common in the USA.
In Sweden and the USA what is becoming common, is to have an "umbrella" of foam insulation around the house, starting just below the surface at the walls and slanting away from the house up to 30 foot away. Rain runs off this and away from the house protecting the foundations, and the earth under the umbrella will be cool in summer and warm in winter. If you have a basement the benefits are even greater. All you need is to rent a Bobcat.
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Rigid foam insulation could have been between the floor and the wood framing. Rawlbolts can go through the foam and into the wood. A nut and washer on a rawlbolt thread either side of the framing sole plate will support the timber.

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It is possible to have foam insulation directly against the walls and plaster directly over. This type of foam was shown in the Grand Designs prog on the house with the V roof.
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this?
up
If you want to put plaster board over the celotex, then you could first fix uprights to the wall, fill between with celotex, then plasterboard over the whole lot. This would give you some solid bits to fix things to. It is also possible to get plasterboard already fixed to celotex.
MrCheerful
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Stephen Gilkes wrote:

There are some nice "knock-in" fastners from Rawlplug et al. Just drill through the batten, into the wall and then NAIL the batten on. The "nail" is a screw like thingy which can be tightened further once it is on the wall. Very quick and also very strong.
Don't forget the sealing tape stuff too.,
Steve
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and
Celotex
to
to
this?
up
Forget the lot use thermoboard, which is plasterboard with 30/40/50 mm insulation bonded. 17 an 8x4 sheet fix with drywall adhesive.4.75 a 25kg bag. Bingo finish in one. Standard requirement on newbuild exterior walls.

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For a shed, though, it might be more appropriate to use plywood instead of (or in addition to) plasterboard, as it is much easier to fix shelving and racking to.
Christian.
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:19:37 -0000, "Christian McArdle"

I turned a pre-fab 20' x 10' concrete garage into a GP workshop and wanted to line the inside with something warm, strong and easy to fix things to. The 'problem' was the inside of the garage was very 'paneled' with a 1 1/2" 'dish' in the panels.
I cut up a load 4 x 2 (sawn) into 6" long blocks and 'Gripfilled' them to the inside walls at 3 heights (top. middle and bottom) and 2' spacing. I then lined the whole lot with bubble pack and used ally 'H' section strips to lock 12m WBP (is it?) ply panels together at the joints and screwed to the wooden blocks.
The whole lot was painted with some light grey floor paint and (second hand) Spur uprights (full height) fitted at 2' intervals around all the walls (picking up on the glued blocks). This means I can put shelves pretty well anywhere and the ply is strong enough for brackets or small draw units in between.
The steel trussed, corrugated cement fibre, ridge type roof is a bit of a low pitch for any real 'loft' storage. I've not done anything to that yet but I might fabricate some taller trusses and re-roof it at some time soon? I think I can go up to 3m high without needing planning permission (the workshop is 8' 6" at the eaves). I was also considering some of that triple walled polycarbonate sheet to give me more light or maybe an odd corrugated clear H/D panel if I stick with that style?
The std 8' square up-and-over door was not much fun (especially in the winter) so I fabricated a triple traditional door set (out of 50 x 25 x 1.5 mm steel box tube clad in steel sheet) to give a single 1/3 rd wide 6' 6" high personal door and the other 2/3 rds are a sort of bi-fold allowing the whole thing to open up if needed.
It all took quite a while to do but makes for a great hidy hole for 'fettling' stuff ;-)
All the best ..
T i m
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wrote:

of
and
Sounds nice. Local byelaws may be different but 4 metres is usual for max height
MrCheerful.
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wrote:

[T] Ah, that makes more sense as if my eaves are 8' 6" ( ~ 2.5m) already without the roof pitch?
I thought I remember something about flat roofs having a lower limit than pitched?
All the best ..
T i m
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