What type of moister barrier do we need to use between the wooden cladding and the studwork? Jewsons Sold us a roll of Tyvek Supro roofing moister barrier at significant expense when asked what was required, however reading the label it doesn't say its suitable for walls, and their website casts further doubt. Will this stuff work ok or do we need to take it back and get something else? Neither B&Q,Wicks or Buildbase had anything at all suitable.
Thanks
Jaime
Dunno if it's still appropriate, but when I replaced some cladding a few years back, I used 'tarred' building paper. It's sort of like two thickish sheets of brown paper with a thin layer of bitumen to hold them together. I think there was also some jute or hessian fibres in the sandwich as well. It was a case of replacing like for like.
Aye, it's not cheap stuff.
Hum, is that just "marketing", fairly sure they do "building wrap" stuff as well. Might be better to look at a DuPont web site aimed at the US market rather than EU or UK, as timber clad/built is much more common over there.
The advantage of the Tyvek stuff is that it breaths unlike bitumen based felts/papers. Gortex of houses...
Thanks for the reply. Looking at the Tyvek site it appears the stuff we have can be used for walls, so its probably easiest to use what we now have.
Thanks
Jaime
Thanks for the reply, yes they do a building wrap as well however the supro was the only one our 'local' builders merchants had. Looking at their manual on the site it does say that this one can be used on walls, so I shall go ahead and start installing.
What's the best way to attach it before nailing the cladding on? (stapler?). Also at the moment I was going to fix the cladding with oval nails however I'm worried they will rust, all the galvanised nails B&Q had where large headed so we decided against them. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Jaime
Seems reasonable but staples will rust and what little stress there will be untill the cladding is on will be conctrated, mind you you can rip the stuff by hand. To avoid the corrosion problem I think I'd go for 1/2" hot dip galvanised clouts.
Not really dig about on the US house building sites and see what they use. I agree bog standard mild steel ovals will rust.
Jaime: <
Tyvek is completely standard and a common choice for use immediately under the exterior finish. Thoiusands of squrae meteres
In building practice here (climate similar but colder than the UK) a moisture 'BARRIER' (notice the word 'barrier') is NEVER used 'outside' of any insulation in the walls. To do so could/would result in condensation inside the wallsd. Thus future possibility of rot and mould and damp, reducing the value of any insulation.
A vapour 'barrier' (often plastic sheeting carefully sealed around any possible leaks around electrical outlets etc.) must be used 'inside'. i.e. on the warm side of the walls. Note 1. The last thing you want is expensively heated, warm and therefore moisture containing air to leak out into the cool walls and condense out there!
Hence Tyvek, or some form of PERMEABLE building paper that will stop draughts but allow any moisture that does manage to get into the walls for any reason to ventilate and 'breathe' out is used near the exterior surface of the wall.
Note 1. One recommendation in this climate is that if insulation is added on say the interior surface of the wall any existing non permeable vapour barrier should end up being no more than one third of the total insulating value of the wall 'into' (or through) the wall; if you get what I mean. If when no vapour barrier has been previously been provided some types of paint (generally several coatings of 'oil' paint) can provide some value as a vapour barrier.
All this supported by the fact that we have wood frame buildings that are now 50 to 100 years old with either a) no insulation at all or b) insulated with proper vapour barriers and permeable building sheaths. We have built two homes since 1958 using method (b). Both are continuously in use without problems.
Some concern here has been houses that were initially or later covered over with vinyl siding (horrible stuff IMO, although cheap and quick to install); in certain cases condensation can occur on the inner surface of the non permeable vinyl 'siding' hence the wall can be damp. Doesn't happen often because the universal use of vapour barriers inside and mandatory air exchanger systems in most heavily insulated homes is required. Also with vapour barriers on the inside of the walls, usually immediately under the plaster or gypsum board, 'bubbling' of non vinyl wooden painted siding is avoided by using shiplap boards with permeable non moisture trapping stain.
Summary. keep the warm moist air inside but ventilate kitchens and bathrooms as required. Outer wall (and attics) must 'breathe' and ventilate to avoid damp, mould and rot.
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Many thanks for the detailed reply.
Jaime
Outerwals and attics do not need to "breathe" at al. If you have a heat recoivery and vent system that wull do.
Jaime: Hope you don't mind the following additional comment/info.
Here next to the North Atlantic (read salty fog, windy and damp at times) we use heavily galvanized nails for wood siding and wood trim, in fact all outside work. exposed to the elements. I think the term is "Hot dipped" or "Hot galvanized". Rugged; in fact I sometimes reuse them! If one does not, or inadvertently uses a regular wire nail, or perhaps a regular 'bright' (zinc plated) screw or hook it's no time at all before a rust streak occurs! For our nominally ten inch wide (eight inch actual reveal below the approx
1.75" overlap) tapered pine siding, IIRC I used 1.5 inch galv. nails. Regular heads. Nailing carefully through both overlapping boards about half inch 'up' from the edge, into the wooden boards of the outer house wall which has been covered by layer of, nowadays, Tyvek or on slightly older homes, black building paper. Sometimes people drill a hole if a particular board has tendency to split but this generally unnecessary. Occasionally the thinner portion of the board below the lapped one will split, but maybe out of sight anyway. In 33 years I have had to replace about 40% of the boards on the back of this house, facing S.E. (We do get sun as well btw) and a few on the front (facing N.W.) which gets the prevailing and offshore westerly wind. And the odd board on the end facing N.E. which gets the brunt of the onshore and winter storms. Note 1. ( BTW We've seen very few icebergs so far this year although a few big ones were several miles out a couple of weeks ago and there was small 'bergy bit' floating in the bay when I went to the Post Office today!). You can cut the shiplap corners carefully to fit, alternately fitting one end over the adjacent board on the other wall, but that's lot of work! Or you can butt up against vertical corner strips (which we call "Corner Kinds") or you can buy metal corner covers, one per row of lap board, per corner; (I prefer aluminium ones cos. they don't rust like cut galvanized steel will eventually, even if painted! In western Canada, Alberta, Saskatchewan etc, on good authority (neighbour's son lives and works there) they laugh at the idea of using galvanized nails. They don't need to in their extremely cold and dry or extremely hot and dry climate! By the same token their motor vehicles don't rust out like ours; it's either so cold that road salt is ineffective or it's hot! On the other hand they have to start and drive their vehicles in the well below zero (and that's below zero Fahrenheit!) temperatures which we do not encounter here! Good luck with your siding. Terry.Note 1. Strangely that end of the house requiring least replacement of lapboard is where our outside wall mounted electricity meter housing corroded badly after some 32 year; being most exposed to the driven salty Atlantic fog! We are about a kilometre from the Atlantic; but so are most of the other homes in this community!
Nothing.
[78 lines snipped] 1 > 2 >Outerwals and attics do not need to "breathe" at al. If you have a heat 3 >recoivery and vent system that wull do. 4 > 5 >
Learn to snip, f****it.
"IMM" wrote in message news:c9tng4$14n$ snipped-for-privacy@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
To IMM. I defer to your knowledge of the climate and and conditions in the UK. I have never built or lived over there since 1956. Just that Tyvek is probably the most commonly used outer wall membrane here now, in this climate. A climate which, in my opinion, is colder but similar perhaps to, say, coastal Scotland. Tyvek or similar is used in the now very heavily insulated (R2000 standard) homes with the mandatory heat/air exchanger systems required by the Canada Building Code and to meet the standards of the lenders of mortgages. My daughters homes, both built since the mid 1980s are thus. i.e. An. interior vapour barriers, heat air/exchangers and the outer shells wrapped with a permeable membrane such as Tyvek, before application of the outer finish. Both are electrically heated at reasonable cost in a climate colder and with a much longer winter than the UK (It's 36 degrees F this morning! June the 6th!). But so frequently on this UK news group posters are asking about problems and conditions which seem similar to what we provide for here as 'normal' construction! For example; questions about poorly insulated and non ventilated attics; about rising damp, which never seems to be mentioned as a problem here, despite our almost 100% wood frame and concrete in ground basements residential construction; about how and where to properly ventilate moisture from bathrooms, cooking areas and from clothes dryers and the amount of venting required in attics; including, on occasion about moisture/mould on the inner surfaces of roof slates or in crawl spaces. And, in this instance about use of an exterior 'breathable' membrane. Tyvek fits in directly with 'normal' building practice in this part of Canada. Another example; I seem to remember that I used Tyvek (or building paper) in the construction of the last garden shed I built in 2002, under the lap siding. The outside siding of the shed is painted (well actually it's a permeable non moisture trapping stain, not paint), exactly same construction and colour as the house. I guess with generally brick/masonry construction especially in a well ventilated (air exchanged house) it doesn't matter so much if some interior moisture condenses within the walls it will eventually find its way and dry out during a warm spell? So just trying to be helpful when it comes to familiarity with Tyvek and the use of wooden lap siding (which colloquially is often referred to as "clapboard"!), for the last 48 years. Many other sidings are also available now on the market at various costs and are being used now as alternatives to the ubiquitous vinyl. Vinyl which I have, as a personal preference, avoided. Most housing (in this part of Canada) is affordable, average home is cost reasonable at say three to six times the annual gross salary of one fully employed person earning the average Canadian industrial salary, comfortable and not too expensive to heat and maintain. The basic cost of the average small serviced building lot, in a new subdivision is now somewhere around $20,000 to $50,000 (9000 UK to 20,000 UK), comprising some 15% to 25%, say, of the total cost of a typical 3 to 4 bedroomer with 1.5 baths, a floor area of, say 1500 sq ft, probably a smallish wooden above ground patio/deck at back. Included with the new house (these days) on such a lot at a total cost for land and house around say $160,000 to $240,000 (Average say 90,000 UK) just enough front garden for a small green patch and a small paved driveway to park two vehicles! Back yard in such an area most likely not be accessible to a vehicle. So it is harder to store boats and or caravans back there during the winter. Lots have become narrower in recent years as developers and municipalities attempt to get more lots to defray servicing costs. With increased development in recent years in this area, demand for more elaborate house has arisen and it is now not too unusual to see some houses ranging up to half a million (200,000 UK) or even a million! In central Canada (especially around major centres) and BC I only know housing is much more expensive! But it does prove that when land available, good quality, affordable housing that will last 50 to 00 years with proper maintenance can be provided! Good luck with Jaime's Tyvek.
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Many thanks
Jaime
It is common here, mainly for warm roofs. As we don't build too many timber homes its usage in walls is limited.
comfortable
£9,000 to 20,000? More like 100,000 plus, to put a smallish house on.We would pay £200,000 plus.
We would have your price levels for similar homes and sized plots if they allowed us to build on the land. BTW, the Canadian R-200 is available here though approved constructors and guaranteed by the Canadian government. The highest eco levels in the world and available here. Many expect the UK to adopt the R-2000 in time, or a variation of it.
IMM wrote
You do talk a load of brainwashed clap-trap.
The housing market is not like a normal supply and demand situation for consumable items such as tins of peas. The price of houses is dictated by what people can afford to pay, not by the supply chain, and while mortgage lenders are falling over themselves to throw money at borrowers, house prices will never fall. What we need is a responsible attitude by lenders to limit mortgage lending to what people can comfortable afford to repay. Then, and only then, when people can't afford to offer the high prices, will they begin to fall.
And what is the reason we are supposed to need all these new houses out in the countryside where there is no infrastructure, where there is no employment and where 90% of the population don't want to live anyway? This whole Government policy about the number of new houses required is flawed. There are several major social issues affecting the housing situation which have nothing to do with any shortfall of new housebuilding or building homes in the middle of nowhere, for example:
The high number of single-parent families The policy of selling-off council houses The system for allocating public housing The number of derelict/uninhabitable/unoccupied units Demographics of transport and employment Immigration issues
The whole country, except brainwashed idiots like you, would say it would be stupid to ruin our rural areas for ever by building thousands of unnecessary houses in out of the way places that nobody wants or, indeed, can afford to repay the amount of money they have to borrow to buy them in the first place.
Please note this message is apolitical and if you're going to reply I do not expect a load of politically biased dogma that you've picked up from some hyped-up career politician trying to win votes. But then I suppose expecting you to think sensibly for yourself is really asking the impossible.
Our resident dimbo intervenes...
It would be if an artificial shortage of land wasn't created.
It is dictated by the supply chain. 2/3 of the value of the average house is the land value.
Because we are short of houses by about 3 million of them.
Wrong. There is a single issue...the availability of land for building. We only live on about 7.3% of the land: urban and rural. There is a land shortage. Please read Who Owns Britain by Kevin Cahill.
< snip ill-informed babble by an idiot >Now read the book a few time and come back and ask sensible questions.
IMM wrote
You didn't answer my question. Why do we need all these houses? Who is going to live in them? Where are they going to work? Haven't you got an answer?
Are you denying these social issues don't affect the demand and availability of homes? Does reading a book that doesn't address them mean these issues don't exist? As I said, "I suppose expecting you to think sensibly for yourself is really asking the impossible".
That's your standard ill-mannered response to any point you can't answer.
Why should I read Kevin Cahill's book? What makes him so special? Maybe he should read mine.
We may be talking flats rather than houses, but there are probably thousands of young adults in this constituency alone who would like to be able to live in a place of their own but realistically have no option but to live with parents until they are well into their 20's. No option if they want to live within reasonable distance of a well-paid job anyway.
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