Faulty Gas Fire/ Engineer refusal due to vents

Hi

I have an airflame Gas Fire which was installed last September and our fitter came back in January as the piezo unit wasn't working, he said that the air control know isn't operating (even though it feels like it is)

This morning an engineer finally called but refused to work on the fire because the flue on our chimney is described in his book as unsuitable for our chimney and the two large air vents in our lounge wall have a fly mesh on the inside and these don't meet gas regulations (the house is about 15 years old and these were installed when the house was built)

They have said that I have to have the external flue and internal flue covers ( and possibly the flue system - they go straight out through the wall) changed before they will look at the fire.

Can anyone tell me where I can find out about gas regulations and if this seems reasonable.

The two internal flues are 12 / 15 inches square (the room is about 25 x 12 ft) and they go directly to the outside wall.

They have two plastic internal covers which slide open and have fly mesh on the inside (we have been unable to find replacements for them)

The chimney is a standard pot and there is a u shaped flue on the top (this was installed by a builder)

I would appreciate any information on gas regs etc

Thanks

Reply to
rition
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I woudl say that it's not the fly mesh that is the problem, it is the fact that these vents can be closed. Alternatives without the slider are widely available, almost every DIY shed sells them.

Reply to
Steve Firth

Just to clarify, you are saying that a company fitted the gas fire last September, and are now refusing to fix a problem with it because it is incorrectly fitted? Just over 6 months after they fitted it?

If I have understood correctly, then the fire should not have been fitted in the first place.

Perhaps a visit to the Citizens Advice Bureau would be the next step?

Cheers Dave R

Reply to
David W.E. Roberts

It's also simple enough to remove the sliding part and refit them.

Julian Ashcroft

Reply to
Julian Ashcroft

"Steve Firth" wrote | wrote: | > They have two plastic internal covers which slide open and have | > fly mesh on the inside (we have been unable to find replacements | > for them) | I woudl say that it's not the fly mesh that is the problem, it is the | fact that these vents can be closed. Alternatives without the slider are | widely available, almost every DIY shed sells them.

Yes, they usually have "Gas safety vent" on the packaging and "IMPORTANT DO NOT BLOCK THIS VENT" moulded into the front of the product itself, for the information of future occupants of Chez Rition.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

We need to clarify some of the naming here so I can be clear.

The air comes in through vents, these are unacceptable because they have a fly screen (which gets easily blocked by dirt) and because they have a hit/miss control which means they are not guaranteed to be permanetly open.

BTW: This must be a big gas fire to need any extra ventilation, or maybe it's a display type?

The products of combustion are carried away in a flue (any pipe or duct for the removal of waste gases) which in this case is a chimney which originally had a plain terminal (pot) and now has some sort of additional u shaped terminal. This last item makes the installation non-compliant.

There are chimney pots terminals which can be used as terminals for gas flues (but they are quit expensive for what they are £60), but easy to fit once you gain access :-;.

What does the installation manual say about all this. Read and then ask questions to clarify what is not clear. It is probable that the second fitter is more thorough but less helpful (How much planning does it take to have a few compliant ges vents in the van?)

The large room size (from a regulatory point of view) is not relevant if the fires need vents it's got have 'em.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

I think it fails because it can be closed but the engineer didn't explain this.

Sadly not it's a 16 inch fire airflame fire installed into a chimney place, which previously had a 16 inch airflame fire and before that a coal fire.

I think what was most upsetting was his attitude - your chimney flue doesn't comply (because the U shaped cowl is not recommended for our chimney)

The internal flues don't meet current regulations so I am not looking at your fire.

I have received a call from Baxi explaining this in more details now - i.e. apparently corgi fitters can be prosecuted if they work on a fire with illegal flues etc- I personally think that they are more likely to be liable now because they have registered two illegal items and done nothing about it so if I die of fumes (unlikely the Baxi man told me as the fire has an automatic cut out and the current vents are about 5 times bigger than those required by law) I have told me friends and family to make sure that they sue Baxi as they knew about the problems but did nothing to stop me using the fire of fix my problems!

Since posting my first message I have spoken to some customer orientated staff at Baxi and I can see where Baxi are coming from but I can't believe that the engineer was so obnoxious after taking time off to be in I think that it would have been better if he had said these points don't meet regulations I will inspect the fire provided you confirm that these things will be changed and if necessary arrange a follow up visit to check.

What I tried to explain was that we paid a company over £1500 to install this fireplace and fire and trusted that them that everything complied,as a lay person I didn't know that the items didn't meet current regulations.

The problem is the fire is faulty and Baxi now use their own service team. The technical customer services manager said that the person installing the fire probably applied common sense and thought those flues are way in excess of the required size so there won't be a problem!

Thanks for everyone's help.

Reply to
rition

Yes. You'll notice on Changing Rooms that they remove these labels, in case their almost airtight MDF boxing in scares the occupants.

Christian.

Reply to
Christian McArdle

You may wish read my FAQ below which will explain about what fitters must to do, by law, when they meet dangerous or potentially dangerous installations. If the second fitter had been so concerned about the terminal and/or the vents he should at the very least have issued an 'At Risk' notice although he would not have had the any right to insist that it was disconnected. The borderline here is whether the flue was working or not. Working but of the wrong design is 'At risk'. Not working (i.e fumes coming into the room) even if the installation is apparently correct is 'Immediately dangerous'.

Just to complain verbally that the installation was not compliant and then leave without either labelling the appliance or fixing the faults is plain wrong.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

  1. Is your fitter CORGI registered then?
  2. What do you mean exactly by "the air control"

Presumably you mean a manufacturers technician called? The standards for air supplies for gas fires are laid down in British Standards. A brief outline (based on the traditional needs of a living flame fire) to guide you is that a gas fire with an INPUT of less than 7 kW does not "usually" need a ventilator into the room PROVIDED that the flue performs properly i.e. it removes all products of combustion without spillage into the room (check your installation and service instructions for further info) If you have a Decorative Fuel Effect fire (DFE) with an input of more than

7kW but less than 15kW then a standard NON CLOSEABLE and NON FLY SCREENED ventilator should be installed which has a free area of 100cm^2 or is the equivalent of an open hole 10cm x 10cm without any obstructions in it.

You can check the requirements of the model of fire you have by reading the installation and service booklet that came with it as previously mentioned and if this simply refers you to BS5440 then a trip to the library will be required but its not very likely that the manufacturers trained technicians will have made any glaring errors in what the model requires.

Flues? - Ventilators surely? /

You cannot have looked very hard - even the sheds have suitable approved ventilators these days but if you are stuck try a visit to your local Plumb Centre branch. If you go armed with the input rating of the fire they should be able to give you the right ventilator as a complete kit with inner cover, wall sleeve, outer cover and a rainshed all in a box.

Can't quite visualise what you mean by a u shaped flue on top, do you mean a H cowl or something similar? Certainly as a result of some bitter experiences a number of the commonly available terminals have been ruled unsatisfactory for use with DFEs

It really sounds as though your installer has failed to do a professional job. If he/she is registered then CORGI need to be consulted as they obviously need to put this installer straight to avoid potentially fatal future errors. Ventilation and flueing are important and basic to the safety of the consumer.

Reply to
John

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