I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam together with all the wires. he said that it would be a whole days job to do the lights as he would need to get all the foam off the wired and would then need to test to make sure he hadn't damaged them.
he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!
Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.
This isn't the "good workmanship" required by wot us old(er) farts call The Wiring Regs and is now British Standard 7671:2001 with the
2002 Amendment (if you want to use that formal title to help bully your builder/seller ;-). It makes it (as you just found) impractical to fix faults or change the fitting. It's harder to argue it's an actual fire hazard - the foam probably isn't flammable - but (ah! here's an argument!) it certainly makes it (a) impossible to inspect that the screws holding the wires are done up tight, and (b) to tighten them if they're loose. And if they are loose, the places where they make contact will get hot, and maybe spark.
The lazy gits wot did this had plenty of reasonable ways to secure a normal ceiling rose: they could have put in a plasterboard back box, used plasterboard/cavity fittings to secure the rose, or put in a little wooden plate running between the two nearest joists into which they could've screwed the ceiling rose. There's no reasonable excuse for the magick-foam trick.
(Obligatory regulatory whinge: and *these* bodgers are considered Competent Persons by the forthcoming "you toucha your wires, you paya da guy with the Stetson, spurs and horse 75quid to say it's no worse a bodge than he'd'a done" regulations... sigh.)
Getting the builder to do the decent thing may be a bit of a struggle. If they try to fob you off at first, see if you can find more fittings bodged this way: it's safe to unscrew the covers on ceiling roses if you switch off all the power in the house, and almost as safe (just as safe unless there are some *really* unsafe bodges!) if you just isolate the relevant lighting circuit at your consumer unit ("fuse box"). On a 1yr old property the circuits in the consumer unit should be clearly labelled, and turning off a whole circuit should mean just pushing a small button or lifting a little switch-looking-thing on the MCB ("miniature circuit breaker" - modern replacement for a fuse) which controls the circuit. Look for this foam-fix-bodge both in your own house, and (if you know one or two of them) your neighbours'. The more widespread the bodge is, the more ammunition you have with the builder/developer when you mention how interested you think the local papers/DogWatch/NHBC/local authority Building Control people might be.
"A K" wrote | I have a house that is 1 year old. In the lounge I have 2 bog | standard ceiling pendants. I have bought some new light fittings and | got an electrician to come and fit them (yes I am a hopeless girlie | when it comes to DIY!). When he unscrewed the pendants he had found | that the hole had been filled completely with expandable foam | together with all the wires. ... | he told me that I should contact the builder and ask him to sort it | out as this was not up to NHBC standard, apparently some unscrupulous | builders get their electricians to do this to secure the fitting when | there is not a joist present to screw the fitting to. He said that | NHBC will make them lift the bedroom floor and put a joist in!
They should put a 'noggin' in between two existing joists to screw the pendant into. It is absolutely shoddy workmanship though, and makes me wonder what other little corners they've cut.
| Can anyone tell me if this is correct? I am concern if having the | wiring coated and encapsulated in this stuff is a fire hazard.
It's probably not an immediate go-up-in-flames-tomorrow hazard[1], but it is definately bad practice. Wiring should not be run through insulating foam like that because it can derate the current-carrying capacity of the cable; this is unlikely to be critical as lighting circuit cable is usually generously-sized anyway. But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term.
Owain
[1] But you will check your smoke detectors before going to bed tonight won't you. All usual disclaimers apply.
Firstly I would advise you to avoid this 'electrician' like the plague as he's obviously trying to make money out of you - the 'whole days job' tale is just ridiculous. Is the fitting screwed in at all? A joist is not necessary for fitting a ceiling rose - plasterboard fittings would be acceptable. I don't really understand the reason for the foam, although it does look like a bodge job. Although he sounds like a cowboy, I would take his advice and contact the builder and then the NHBC if you have no joy. Take care.
struggle. I have a catalogue of issues with them already and they are already proving difficult to deal with. For example, I have 2 set of uPVC patio doors both are very drafty. Last winter the temperature by the doors was 25 degrees lower that the room temp. They claim that drafts are to be expected and that as long it doen't let in water they will not do anything about them! My front door is crooked and is so lose that it rattles in the rain and the door seal has disitegrated. They have acknowledged that they will need to redecorate the whole house as it was so badly done. In 4 of the rooms the radiators are too small (the lounge is only 50% of the size it should be). the list goes on and on........................
The more widespread the bodge is,
authority
The Local Authority don't want to know as you have to claim to them within 6 months. I am doing things properly and writing to the builder and copying NHBC in on it all. This has been going on for over a year and I am at the end of my tether.........................I will have no hesitation of taking them to small claims court very soon, I doubt a judge will consider doors that have drafts to be acceptable along with all the other stuff. I would go to the newspapers but I don't want to blight my house and be unable to sell it. Far be it from me to tell anyone not to buy from this developer but note my problems and draw your own conclusions - the developers name is Whiteoaks Developments Ltd
It does sound a bit generous -- from a diy perspective, I'd have thought that 3 hours or so would do for lifting the upstairs floorboards; cutting the existing cable out; inserting a wooden plate; running a new cable from a junction box; installing the new light fitting to plate; and replacing the floorboards. (Would one really try and clean the foam off existing wires instead of running a new circuit cable to the fitting?)
That said, the guy doesn't sound like a cowboy to me -- I'd have thought if he was, he would've pushed harder for the day's work, and not have advised getting the NHBC involved to get the builder to do it.
"Dave Plowman" wrote | Owain wrote: | > But if the foam has a chemical reaction with the | > cable insulation that could be rather nasty longer term. | I wondered about that, but it's the usual stuff for filling gaps round PVC | windows.
PVC windows don't have 240V electricity running through them.
Well, maybe Angela's do and that'll be the subject of her next posting.
UPVC doesn't have the plasticisers of PVC insulation either. I wouldn't trust insulation in long-term contact with foam unless I had some test results for how it held up. There are a lot of solvents that _are_ known to have an adverse reaction on cable.
What you need is the Trend Routabout. Absolutely ideal for making inspection hatches in chipboard floors. You can find more info here . The basic kit is about £40, and while additional rings aren't that cheap (approx £2.50 each) you shouldn't need that many.
I'm aware of this, but I'd have *thought* there would be warnings about using foam on cable if it were a problem - after all it's easy enough to imagine a scenario where it could happen.
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