Electric cars a step nearer mainstream?

[Roger]

The message from Roland Perry contains these words:

Yes but picking a diesel does precious little for carbon saving in the first place.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Probably at 30% market penetration and when other domestic usage is low..e.g. at 'cheap rate' times.

No, they would need upgrading, but thats something that can be done as needed.

I am sure the same gumenst were applied to the motitr vis a vis the availability of petrol when horseless carriages were first discussed: now we have a multi-=billion pound insdutry tankering fuel around to garages.

At least THEY would diappear from our roads..

you are getting confused. 12 hours at 3Kw is 36Kwh. That is the limit of a standard 13A socket.

60A at 240v is 172Kwh over 12 hours, That is the limit of a domestic single phase supply cabling and fusing, though most COULD be upgraded to 100A.

About one hour at 50-200KW is probably the limits of current battery ability to soak up charge efficiently and safely. THAT needs some custom charging stations probably fed by a separate substation.

If only it were that simple ;-)

Seriously, its all about cost benefit in the end. People who live in towns without the nice off street parking with charge, will find that they have to pay more for motoring: they will either stop motoring, or sort out how to charge, or stay with petrol/diesel.

Your estate agent will specify house electrical capacity and off street charging points as part of the literature, and houses which have neither will not sell well.

Frankly for many people who live in urban terraces, they probably already walk or cyce to te corner shop anyway; there is no reason why their cars could not be kept in a local car park, on permanent charge, ready for when they really need them. Safe from vandalism, and, possibly, the weather.

A lot of people in London do this anyway. Not the charging bit, but they rent monitored off road garaging. If electric car tax was adjusted down, and not too many taxes put on the electricity, it could be made at least no more expensive.

I really don't see a problem except in the transition. It would make in fact the risk of visiting such people MUCH easier, as the on street parking would be available for short term stops.

So? that is not half as lunatic as other greenwash bollocks that is propounded.

And would mean cutting our dependence on the middle east and Russia for petroleum, with obvious advantages. Not to mention hugely swinging the balance of payments away from imports.

when its costing you a quid a mile to run the diesel and 2p for the electric, its amazing how fast peoples objections will disappear...

..even to maybe coal fired stations.

right now we have sufficient off peak generation capacity for a market penetration of maybe up to 10% or more. We probably have grid capacity for maybe 30%.

That's already a bigger potential impact than almost any other 'green' technology has..

If you take - say - 100KWh as being roughly 200 mile range, your off peak fuel costs equate to - at lets say 5p a unit - about £5 a tank..

Now even a 60mpg diesel is currently at around £20 for the same mileage. A factor of four, plus all the maintenance costs associated with an IC engine. And the electric probably outperforms the 60mpg diesel too. Thats the nice thing with electrics. You can get peak power without incurring losses or excess weight in the power train. With IC if you want big power you end up with big components, or highly revving smaller ones, which leads to larger frictional losses in cruise mode.

A 5000 mile a year driver is probably going to save about a grand on motoring costs by going electric. £750 on fuel and about £150 on the service. Oh and there are tax implications too IIRC. Whether the battery depreciation will match IC car depreciation is a moot point, but at least with a battery car a second hand model probably is fixable with just one thing - a reconditioned battery - rather then the zillion little things that can go badly wrong with an IC car.

That's worth giving up a 400 mile range for, for many people. Who have driveways that can take an extension cable..

For those with the space to charge, and who run 2 cars or more anyway, making the small one an electric is economically justifiable already. If the cars were available. I'd buy one tomorrow, if the price was right.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Ah. my mistake.

Its also horribly expensive to actually DRIVE to the south of France..lowest carbon way is probably by air..

Nayway, shift the taxation and people will follow the money.

[Mary Fisher]

I'm open to suggestions. It has to have as much cargo space as the estate plus a large roof box and be able to tow a caravan for up to 300 miles and back. No electricity available on the sites we visit.

We don't need speed, 50 is fine. No idea what 'seamless ride' means, there are no seams on our seats :-)

Zero emissions is good.

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

I didn't understand it either - but I'm only a little woman.

Well, getting littler, Tim!

Mary

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[Mary Fisher]

Um. Swarming is a means of reproduction ...

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[Mary Fisher]

Lack of vocabulary as well as confused thinking.

This will be the last post of yours I read. I know you won't care so don't waste your weak little fingers in saying so.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Er.. alt least 13 litres of coolant in it, so 13kg..

It all adds up,. thats anoteh 25kg weve added to your 130kg.

about a kg.

about 40kg for enough steel to take the torque and vibration of a big IC engine, and connect the stresses to the suspension pickup points.

Nuclear electricity comes in at about 2.5p/Kwh and 90% of that is the cost of building and decomissioning it.

I suppose you are going to tell me that oil pipelines, oil tankers, refineries, car engine plants. Motorway service staions are all 'free' are you?

If you look at the cost of nuclear stations with respect it the oil import bill, you mihht be surprised at how little real opportunity cost they add.

So a 2CV weighs 1/4 ton?

But you just said it weighs half a tonne?

A 50KW pack is more than enough to take a 2CV type car 200 miles. It weighs 275kg or less.

Leaving another 225kg for te rest of the car.

So either you are simple, a liar, or you cant do maths: Your choice really.

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Not if 70% - especially since that 70% is going to include trucks, vans, high-mileage cars - are still petrol/diesel.

Which, on the Pious's 2-miles-from-1.5kWh, is a bit under 50 miles.

Back to where we were decades ago - private transport was only for the wealthy.

Indeed not. That's not what I was meaning. It's a realistic assumption, which nicely illustrates the fact that it's physically impossible and would be political suicide for any government.

IIRC the timescale for nuclear power station building is as much down to the availability of the boys who can do it as planning laws.

Given that the only inherent mechanical difference between a battery electric car and an IC car is the removal of the nice reliable engine and gearbox and replacement with an electric motor and battery pack, you'll find that the "zillion little things that can go badly wrong" (which, these days, are mainly in the multiplexed electronics and safety systems) are still there in exactly the same form. Very few cars are scrapped because of terminal engine or transmission wear.

OTOH, there was an example of one of the few recent "realistic" battery electric production vehicles on fleaBay a year or two back - a Berlingo electric van. Only about 4-5yo, and low mileage, an equivalent diesel van would have been worth several thousand pounds, probably about 40% of the value of a new one.

The electric didn't sell, at a very low opening price of a couple of hundred quid, despite having been considerably more expensive new. Why? Because it "only" needed a new battery pack - the parts for which were/ are available, but cost around twice the price of a NEW diesel Berlingo. I have no doubt that it was eventually broken for the many bits common with the diesel.

[The Natural Philosopher]

You can't have done may 'site visits' then, In may cases the motorway service station is INFINITELY preferable to them ;-)

[dennis]

Then there is the bigger body to house the bigger wheels to house the bigger brakes. Regenerative brakes aren't going to cut it in an emergency stop from 170 mph and neither would brakes that fit in a mini body.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Oh, that's not true: they are markedly more efficient at part throttle cruise than a petrol. nd when blown, pretty good at higher power levels, too.

[The Natural Philosopher]

That depends on how your railway is powerd: if it electric and not from fossil fuel, its 100% greener..

[The Natural Philosopher]

It probably saves about 30%.

Well it depends on what you call 'dramatic' - i'd say that 30% on mpg and nearly that on CO2*, is significant, but not dramatic.

The economic benefit is (now) stripped away almost entirely by the high cost of diesel.

• diesel having less hydrogen to carbon ratio, is somewhat nearer to coal than to gas..petrol tends in the other direction. Though additives lower it again.

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Heh. I have...

OK, so being back home two hours earlier is preferable to an hour in the services each way...

[Adrian]

"Mary Fisher" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

A Mini doesn't have a "super smooth seamless ride" to start with.

[tinnews]

Zero emissions is nonsense! :-)

[dennis]

Only the older engines on public transport and lorries. New cars emit virtually nothing.

[dennis]

Do you want to see the results of my MOT? Particulates are so low they can't be measured.

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Cars with _considerably_ larger engines and cooling system requirements have far less coolant than that... The K-series holds around 4-5 litres of coolant in the entire system.

How, exactly, were you planning to have this electric car deal with suspension loadings and collision impacts?