Drawing a circuit diagram

[Clive George]

Word 2003, and I think the previous version too. Screenshot pasted in without doing anything clever - 236,700 bytes in PNG, 254,976 in .doc.

[Rod]

Memory may be faulty, but IIRC Word uses PNG as the internal format of bitmaps. Even when Word would not actually accept PNGs themselves. So an embedded PNG tends to have its size reflected in the total document size but a BMP if often compressed to some extent.

Also, nasty problem was always getting images out of Word. Copy and paste produced some bizarre effects. Then I read of the idea of saving the Word document as HTML - and all the images end up in the underlying folder.

[NT]

Did any of them exist in the 1950s? AFAIK the only format in use today that existed then is .txt. Maybe you haven't fully taken in how much computers will change over the life of the garage, which will be a good double that long.

NT

[The Natural Philosopher]

I don't think paper and ink existed 2000 years ago actually.

There are more documents being scanned into computers than there are computer documents being archived onto papyrus.

Who amongst ye can still read an 8" floppy disk, txt or otherwise? By the way .txt is a pure micro computer invention AFAICR. Text files on other systems - ASCII text that is - had no extension, any extension you care to mention, or any other combination

The density of information in a circuity digram cannot be conveyed in ASCII anyway. a circuit diagram is NOT a load of letters, its is a DRAWING.

And, I can assure you, we used all the things at our disposal, dashed, dotted, angled and variable thickness lines, to make them more easily comprehensible.

DXF IS ascii, but ascii used to describe vectors, not alphabeticised words

Here, this is a bit of vettor graphics. You might be amused to see what it says.

0 SECTION 2 HEADER 9 $ACADVER 1 AC1015 9 $ACADMAINTVER 70 6 9 $DWGCODEPAGE 3 ANSI_1252 9 $INSBASE 10 0.0 20 0.0 30 0.0 9 $EXTMIN 10

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[Dave Liquorice]

And assuming you can extract the data from the medium on which it stored you can, do the ASCII transaltion on each byte, print it out, read it and plot by hand. Not so easy to do with a binary format...

[Andy Champ]

Weren't most of the computers back then IBM or similar mainframes, running EBCDIC not ASCII?

Paint it on the garage wall.

Andy

[PeterC]

Take a photograph of it on film - that lasts for a while and is easily read.

[blackbat]

MS Visio

[NT]

EBCDIC is fairly well known, but even basic plain text wasnt standardised back then. Hence the ASCII standard. But I believe ASCII was based on existing practice rather than a new completely incompatible standard, and that there were mainly 2 trends, ebcdic being not the only one.

As well as IBMs with EBCDIC there were all sorts of oddities. The soviets played with trinary logic, and decimal and hexadecimal were no strangers to computing at the hardware level. Relay logic was also used at the budget end, leading to probably the worlds slowest ever computer:

was even a series of very successful fluid based computers... presume EBCDIC is still readable by some piece of software somewhere

NT

[NT]

I've never found it hard to do simple circuit diagrams in ascii art.

NT

[pete]

In the '50 and '60s (maybe even the '70s, too) the most widespread electronic text format was the 5 bit Baudot code used by Telex and teleprinter machines.

[Derek Geldard]

Bzzzt,

Not sure what you mean by "Teleprinter machine". where was that used .

The American Telex system used Teletype KSR (or ASR) 33 machines which were 7 bit (or 8 bit with parity) At one time I had a collection of them plus Creed 3x tape printers and 7b page printer machines.

Derek

[Baz]

Very childish! Baz

[pete]

Yes, the Teletype Corporation machines were 7 or 8 bit, but the Creed telex machines that I've seen (the 54.5 Baud / 80 Volt types) had a 5 bit plus start/stop bit format. Their paper tape was 5-hole plus a sprocket.

[Bob Eager]

I once had a job with Advance Linen (the roller towel people) in their computer room. All depot stock levels came in on Telex 5-track tape, and every evening we had to feed it all in.

The program was awful - it required a double check that the date on the tape was correct. We had to enter the date, backwards, in octal, on the operator console before each tape...

It was written a long time before by the guy who was then chief programmer. No one dared to complain...

[tinnews]

Proper teleprinters as used for Telex used a 5-bit code, so unbzzzt! They mostly ran at 50 baud too, half the speed of KSR/ASR33 teleprinters. The operators had to limit their typing to that speed which was distinctly slower than an expert typist could manage *and* they had to do it at a constant inter-character speed, the telex machine wouldn't accept characters closer together, no buffering of any sort.

I remember watching teleprinter operators using them when I worked in far away places in the 1970s so the above is right on that front too.

Just to add another oddity I worked on DEC PDP-8 and PDP-12 machines in the 1970s and 1980s, they used a cut down 6-bit code (a sub-set of ASCII) to fit two characters in each of their 12-bit words.

[Jules]

Having done the move across the Pond, I can sympathise - I don't think I'll ever get used to writing dates backwards ;)

On a serious note, it's funny how bad computer interfaces often used to be. I don't mean CLI or Unix commands etc. as they make a lot of sense (and just require some up-front learning rather than being point-and-drool) - but outside of environments with really restricted resources there was just no excuse for how bad some of the interfaces were...

cheers

Jules

[The Natural Philosopher]

My diagrams were not simple.

[Jules]

Logic and machine state can impact on the program side, but I think it's largely irrelevant to storage of data - the use of trinary doesn't mean that the interface that the user sees has to be something completely alien.

that old (in a computing context)... there was only very expensive and really expensive :-)

Yeah; no problem. Off the top of my head, four ways to make data survive long-term:

1) Make the format simple (so someone can pick them apart and figure them out even without documentation), 2) Make the format self-documenting (e.g. such as XML, where there's a lot of semantic context embedded), 3) Preserve the format specification (often difficult), 4) Keep refreshing the data, converting it to the most-recent standard as time goes on.

... of those I think the first two are really the most viable; people don't refresh data often enough (or it falls out of sight), and similarly data specification documents have a nasty habit of vanishing or becoming separated from the data itself.

cheers

Jules

[Andy Champ]

Dec preserved that in the DECsystem10, which had a 36-bit word; a filename was a whole word, of 6 characters 6 bits each, plus half another word for the extension. Or else a word could hold 5 7-bit ASCII characters, with a bit spare.

ICL 1900 had a 24-bit word, and used a 6 bit character set too. I bet they were all different ones.

Jules might like to think how hard XML would be to pick apart if he didn't know the character set.

Andy