I've got mains RO80 halogens which look like large LV lamps - I didn't want to change the fittings - and they're claimed to have a long life as well as giving a very pleasant light.
I've got downlighters over the work surfaces which don't have cupboards above them and they give excellent concentrated light. Those with worktops above have got fluorescents mounted under the cupboards and running their full length. General lighting is by a pendant over the breakfast room part table. Both the pendant and florries are dimmable. But I must admit to not being overtly concerned about efficient use of electricity for lighting - I'd rather have what I want and make sure it's turned off when not needed.
Didn't you just say: "A kitchen has one purpose, working on food (and perhaps things like flower arranging). If it is also a dining room then one needs more than just work lighting. However, other then task lighting, downlighters have little role to play in these other sorts of lighting."
No, a decent-sized kitchen, with a sofa for friends and family to sit and natter to me while I'm at stove or sink and a table to prepare food on or eat an informal meal from - the dining room is separate and for one's more formal soirees.
Unfortunately, I won't be agreeing that the compact fluorescent has any place where people would want to actually see things in their natural colours, as under their light, one can't. I like to see things in natural colours, it helps me think, eat, drink, converse... all among the more important activities in my life.
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:31:37 +0100 someone who may be F wrote this:-
A good reason for avoiding ye olde worlde fittings in favour of things where form follows function.
For both the ideal is bright shadowless general lighting that extends to all parts of the room/work area. The best way of doing this is still with fluorescent tubes that illuminate the room evenly. Don't make them too bright, as glare is unpleasant. Select the right daylight tubes. In a room 6m x 3m I would start my calculations with three single 1.2m tubes spaced 1m, 3m and 5m from one narrow wall, going across the narrow dimension. Prismatic diffusers might be considered a little office like, though opal might just gain acceptance. Both are easy to clean, important in a kitchen. Bare tubes are not particularly pleasant.
If the Management will not allow these then fit bare tubes by the top of the cupboards, fit a baffle and paint the ceiling white to bounce the light downwards. You will need more and more powerful tubes to provide a useful level of illumination though. There is a very noticeable difference between the two sorts of lighting and your electricity meter will go round faster in this situation.
Give either scheme separate switches, especially if one end is more likely to be used for working. Ensure that the general lighting (or at least part of it) can be switched from every door.
Where there are cupboards above work areas fit the smaller fluorescent tubes under them. Compact fluorescent lights can go in cooker hood light fittings. Provide local switches under the cupboards, so water from wet hands will not run into them and they are easy to turn on and off as necessary. Fit a downlighter above the sink, with a reflector compact fluorescent bulb, controlled by a pull cord switch. These lights will counteract any shadows from the general lighting while working on a task. They can also be used if it is a bit dark outside, but not dark enough to turn the general lighting on.
For this less bright lighting is highly desirable. This might be by eyeball downlighter(s), spotlamp(s) fitted to wall or ceiling, perhaps a rise and fall lantern, aimed at the table. They are best fitted with tungsten reflector bulbs and controlled by a dimmer to vary lighting to mood. If you have a nice wooden table consider amber bulb(s) to bring out the grain. With spotlamp(s) tungsten bulbs with a silver crowned top can work very well, as they cut out glare and provide an even light.
To provide a low level of background lighting for meals fluorescent tubes above the cupboards can work well. If they also provide general lighting switching off most of these can work well.
Yes. As this lighting will be used a lot it makes sense for it to be energy efficient.
If any wall cupboards have glass doors or open fronts then low voltage halogen downlighters can look good, illuminating the contents while eating. If they are not run too often the bulbs will not blow every few minutes.
One tip with these lights is not to go for the ones with bulbs with two wires sticking out the back. The ones with SBC fittings seem to last rather better. Undoubtedly they contain the same capsules with the wires sticking out the back, but surrounding this with a proper bulb seems to do these good. An example is
formatting link
Remaining long wall has a door and will have 600mm wide floor to ceiling
Ovens need somewhere to put dishes down beside them. If the general lighting does not reach this worktop another downlighter, like at the sink, will do the job. However, an ordinary switch will be fine.
formatting link
is the sort of bulb, brighter versions of this are available though and about 20W would probably be better.
That is why the low running costs of fluorescent lighting are ideal. Turning on as much light as necessary becomes second nature without worrying that it will cost a lot.
It is more than couple of pence, covering the ceiling with little downlighters can costs hundreds of pounds a year in electricity.
Kitchens with dining rooms are amongst the most difficult rooms to light. A bulb in the middle is rarely the right approach, neither is covering the ceiling with little halogen downlighters all wired to one switch. They need flexible lighting, tailored to the precise layout and uses.
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 20:55:54 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-
That rather depends on the particular lamp and how it is illuminating the object [1]. I have decades of experience operating in buildings largely lit with various sorts of fluorescent lamps. I have not experienced the problems you claim exist and neither have those I work, rest and play with.
I have no need to, or rather I did so long ago fairly intensively. Of course one can always brush up one's knowledge, which I do regularly.
[1] some of the more recent cheap compact fluorescent lamps have particularly bad tubes and will suffer from this to some extent. Another own-goal is to fit the original compact fluorescent lamps, those with prismatic diffusers, into downlighters. In such cases most of the light bounces around inside the fitting, instead of illuminating things outside it. However, the reflector bulbs available for such fittings are very good in both respects.
Probably because it's been covered loads of times before, as was said in an earlier response.
I've done several kitchens and done the lighting in even more. One scheme which invariably works well is to use the cupboards for the lighting. Task lighting for the worktops goes under the wall cupboards, immediately behind the pelmet if you have one. General room lighting can go on top of the cupboards to bounce off a brilliant while ceiling and generate an excellent coverage with no glare and no shadows. Worktops with no wall cupboard above (sinks are common case) can be lit with either specifically positioned downlighters, or a wall mounted uplighter to light the ceiling directly above, or a hanging fitting (I would not do this over a sink).
Switch the general lighting and task lighting separately, which enables the lighting to easily be adjusted for different uses and levels of natural light.
If you are rewiring the kitchen, I would suggest providing Klik lighting sockets above and below each run of wall cupboards for the lights, which can then be plugged in. A central ceiling light in a kitchen is remarkably useless for lighting (unless it's over an island). You might want to retain it for a decorative (low power) light, or remove it. (In one case, the wiring for it became a point for an emergency light only.)
The one kitchen I've been involved with where the lighting is a disaster is one where the occupant insisted on spot lamps inspite of my warnings to the contrary. The general lighting level is terrible and fails into shadows just where you are working at a worksurface. To get a good lighting level in a 6m x 3m kitchen using halogen downlighters would probably require 500-1000W depending on floor reflectivity. 1000W of lighting could cost you over £500/year to run depending on usage pattern and would require a new lighting circuit.
On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:34:29 GMT someone who may be "Dave H." "A kitchen has one purpose, working on food (and perhaps things like
Yes.
Is there a difficulty in understanding that a kitchen is somewhat different to a kitchen that is also a dining room? The differences should be obvious.
Poses much the same diverse lighting requirements as a kitchen with dining room. The lighting is likely to be as complex and diverse.
Somewhat easier to light than the kitchen with dining room. However, it is still important to have fairly bright illumination for setting the table and clearing up, which can be reduced for the meal.
All of a sudden we are talking about "natural" colours, rather than cooking and eating. There is only one way of doing this properly, take the things outside.
Little halogen lamps are not going to provide natural lighting across the whole room, as the illumination is too uneven, unless the lamps are placed close together and one is prepared to have the electricity meter spinning round like a catherine wheel.
My usual tips on fluorescent tube colour selection are... If you are mixing with filament lighting, then you need the same colour temperature, i.e. 2700K tubes, or you will see a noticable colour temperature difference between the two. Otherwise pick 2700K or 3500K tubes based on the lighting level you are designing for. 2700K will look more correct at lighting levels common in the rest of your house. However, people often want a higher lighting levels in kitchens, in which case 3500K will look OK. Don't be tempted to go for higher colour temperatures -- they will look anaemic at indoor artificial lighting levels. Midday sun may well be 6500K, but unless you cover your whole ceiling with fluorescent tubes to achieve the same lighting level as midday sun, 6500K tubes will simply look blue, and the lack of red will have a bad effect on colour of food in particular.
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:22:36 +0100, David Hansen wrote (in article ):
You have my sympathy.
I know they exist. Fluorescent fittings may be OK for office and factory environments. I even have some in my workshop. They are not suitable for domestic settings, unless you like the house to look like a factory of course.
I have yet to find one of these that isn't like that.
On 02 Jul 2006 21:28:57 GMT someone who may be snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-
Indeed. I have seen this triumph of "looks" over useability too. I blame the "do your house up" television programmes, where the "designers" seem to know little or nothing about designing lighting and would probably reject the ideas of those who do.
In one kitchen, perhaps 4m x 7m, general illumination is provided by
720W of reflector spotlights, on a common circuit. Brightness is fine, but not energy conserving.
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 23:15:10 +0100 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-
Another "amusing" comment that falls flat.
Once again a dogmatic statement. Many people find it perfectly possible to light a house with compact fluorescent lamps without it looking like a factory. Thus your statement is false.
Perhaps it's that not everyone - especially men - have normal colour vision. Although a sound engineer, I often work closely with a lighting director and am perhaps more used than most to noticing the different effects colour temperature and non continuous spectrum lighting has, although this is far more easy to spot 'on camera'.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.