Double Glazing Salesman

[Mark_Sci]

I'm currently in the process of getting quotes for double glazing for my home. I went to a well known National Company (beginning with 'A'!) and tried to get an online quote to give me a rough idea of what I could expect to pay. At the end of this process the internet site said that I would be contacted soon and low and behold, 5 minutes later, my mobile rings. You can probably guess the rest...

I wanted a quote to find out how long I'd need to save up for, so I agreed for the salesman to visit, but, being slightly concerned as to what I had let myself in for, I did some research on the internet to get an idea of what I should expect from his visit. This was invaluable, as I felt more in control of the whole situation. I thought I'd submit a post and share my experience with the aim of maybe helping somebody else.

The bottom line is expectations. I expected a quote. The salesman expects a sale. A question I was asked by the lady who telephoned to the arrange the appointment and the salesman himself when calling ahead before his visit was whether my partner would be present. This is so that it is not possible to avoid commiting to the sale by saying 'I'll have to discuss it with my partner'.

The salesman turned up on time and before continuting said that his prices were valid for 6 months so he would only continue if we were in a position to buy within this time. He then used our dinning room table to do a demo using a small flip chart. The demo went into how his company spent it's money (to persuade you that advertising costs are kept down so that sales prices could be kept low), how good the product was (which in fairness looked very good), security, and the remaining

20% of the demo was spent talking about the perils of cheaper products and other companies. The whole process lasted about 20 minutes, was quite technical and the salesman was very polished and had ovbviously done this many times before.

He then went to his car (my partner and I then realised that we could be in for a long evening) and returned with a sample window and sample guttering facias - again all very impressive and illustrated his pointes regarding the quality of the product.

About 15 minutes later he started measuring up our windows in order to provide a quote...(horray!) This process took about 10 minutes, with the salesman asking about the style of window and openings that we wanted. Advice from the internet said that the salesman will try to convince you to have less openings in the window as this keeps the cost down (which he did), however you should not compromise on what you actually want and always keep with the style of the house, as this could detract from it's value. When discussing doors he seemed quite helpful, and discussed our options and reminded us about maintaing a desireable amount of light.

We then sat back down, and he started talking figures. His first quote was in the region of =A318k. He then said that because the windows are made individually to our specification, the more we order, the cheaper the price - so it then came down to =A312k. He then started talking about the 'Christmas Sale' and we got down to a figure of =A39k. A pretty impressive discount! Throughout this process we were asked how we felt about the prices. I said that =A39k sounded good but was still too high for us. We were told that the =A39k figure was available only if we were to put a deposit down now (of 10%) which I said I could not do. He also started talking about finance which I declined because of the many other debts that we have associated with improving our home. When he asked what was stopping me from putting down the deposit, I said that I would like to see more companies and products before committing. He asked if we wanted to compromise on security and quality, and I said that I didn't care if the windows went yellow in 20 years time (because I hopefully would have moved on) and the quality of the locking mecahnisms are irrelevant if somebody puts a brick through your window!

I wouldn't say he became aggressive or confrontational but his tone did change considerably. He asked us what the point of seeing other people was if we couldn't afford it - but we maintained that we maybe could afford the windows at a lower price. He then caught me by surprise by asking what I was expecting to pay. I said =A37k and he asked if I would put down a deposit now if we got the windows at that price! I maintained that I would like to see some other companies before committing and with that he got up from his seat and started packing his things away(!) My partner and I were almost open mouthed - it was as if he'd started sulking, and we both felt quite awkward as he packed up. He made two visits to his car to pack his things away, he didn't leave any literature or figures for us and I was virtually ignored although my partner did get a curt 'goodbye' as she let him out of our house.

A very strange experience. We almost felt sorry for him coming out late at night and leaving so abruptly without a handshak or goodbye, but we reminded ourselves that he was there to provide us with a quote (which in the end I don't think we even got) at hours which his company offered us. The more I thought about it the more annoyed I got - we invited this man into our home and he was rude to us. There was no opportunity to think about the prices or see any other companies.

From reading the internet, the general impression I got was to go with

local companies who care about their reputations in their communities and who offer similar products and a high service. The next person who provides us with a double glazing quote I'm hoping will be there to do just that and not put pressure on us to sign there and then!

[Phil L]

Here's a free tip, anyone requiring a salesman to hawk their cheesy wares, is either:1) too expensive, 2) crap or 3) a conman....I have two silent salesmen, they're called 'Quality' and 'Reliability',with these two I don't need anyone in a suit.

[Dave Fawthrop]

|I'm currently in the process of getting quotes for double glazing for |my home.

Get at least 3 quotes, do nothing till you have all three in writing. Reject any firm which uses the hard sell. Do not believe the bit about "I'll have to clear this with the boss" Ask the neighbours for their experience.

[John]

[Andy Hall]

A few pieces snipped, because it's not an unusual experience.

In a highly competitive market like that, the salesman is motivated to close the customer as quickly as possible for a number of reasons:

- He has financial and transaction targets to meet.

- There is a typical range of conversion rates - meaning of the initial enquiries how many turn into visits and how many visits turn into sales.

- In order for this to all fit together, and bearing in mind that he can only make so many visits a day - maybe 4 or so to this level of detail, he needs to be able to close the customer as quickly as possible and ideally on the first visit. This is why the administrator qualifies the customer first of all to check that the partner is present because it takes one objection off of the table.

- The dropping of price from £18k to 12, everybody gets and there are people who would have bitten at that level. Going to 9 was the point at which he really hoped to sell.

- He would have taken the deal at £7k because it's better to have that than to have to make a return visit when he is in price and product competition with 2 or 3 other firms and there would be more visits and more work to do.

having said all of that, had he been behaving professionally, he would not have been rude or made you feel uncomfortable for sticking to your position, especially as you had made that clear at the outset. It's fair game for him to try to get you to change your mind from your initial position to agreeing to buy on the night, but at the point that you had said no for the second time, he should have backed off from that and agreed to a fallback position of wanting to know how many others and timescales. He could have even got agreement (probably) to a follow up phone call or meeting where he would be expecting to close (or not) without investing too much more time.

While there is no excuse for his behaviour, to some extent the situation arises because of the competitiveness of the market and the customer's expectation of large discounts.

One thing that I will also mention, is that while I can understand that you don't want to accept his finance offer through not wanting to take on more debt, it is a very good idea to use a finance vehicle of some kind to pay. This is because if the company goes bust or fails to perform, you have recourse to the lender who is jointly liable. Pay cash or cheque and this protection under the Consumer Credit Act doesn't exist.

This does not mean that you have to take on the finance vehicle as debt. Check the small print of the agreement and find out whether you can pay everything back early. Some agreements have early termination penalties, others don't. If interest free for six months is offered another option you could try is to offer to pay by credit card and ask for a further small discount after the price has been broadly agreed. Finance companies hope that people won't pay the money back in 6 months and they will be able to charge a higher rate after that. If customers pay in 6 months, the cost of the money has to come from somewhere, so either the DG company or finance company or both are paying and that is built into the price. Hence you could quite reasonably ask for a further discount based on not using the finance, but a credit card instead. The DG company may want to cover themselves to about 3% for that because of the card company cost to them.

Of course, with a card, you should pay off the balance just as though you had paid cash.

[Dave Fawthrop]

|This does not mean that you have to take on the finance vehicle as |debt. Check the small print of the agreement and find out whether you |can pay everything back early. Some agreements have early termination |penalties, others don't. If interest free for six months is offered |another option you could try is to offer to pay by credit card and ask |for a further small discount after the price has been broadly agreed. |Finance companies hope that people won't pay the money back in 6 months |and they will be able to charge a higher rate after that. If |customers pay in 6 months, the cost of the money has to come from |somewhere, so either the DG company or finance company or both are |paying and that is built into the price. Hence you could quite |reasonably ask for a further discount based on not using the finance, |but a credit card instead. The DG company may want to cover |themselves to about 3% for that because of the card company cost to |them.

IME the best way is to get the windows done a few at a time. Do the rottenest ones which *really* need doing first, in *cash* if possible. When you have paid for them get the next batch done.

[Owain]

If possible, time the order (and schedule the work) so that as much as possible is done in the 30-45 day period between billing date and statement date, giving the maximum opportunity to dispute the payment before actually having to pay it and then claim it back.

Also, don't let them take the old windows away. Tell them you want them (unbroken) to use as cloche in the garden. That way, if the new installation is s**te the old ones can go back in as a temporary measure.

One might even be able to sell the old windows to someone who is ripping out their plastic windows...

Owain

[Andy Hall]

Doesn't help. What if they fall apart in two years and the firm has gone bust.?

Cash = unsecured creditor with no chance of recompense

Credit purchase = ability to pursue lender.

[R D S]

-------

I have had much of the same.

Its a shame when you actually want to buy something and you can't bring yourself to phone round the companies offering what you want, I want some new patio doors but frankly haven't the energy to fight off one pushy salesman ofter the other.

[Staffbull]

Can I ask how many windows/doors were involved, just so I can have a guestimate as to how much profit they were looking at, I got mine from a well reccomended guy in Leeds, (recomended by a builder who buy's off him monthly) Typical price was =A3200 per window for 2m X 1.5m and =A3350 ish per door. Damn good quality they are too ! =A330 extra for the fire opening hinges on one of the upstairs bedrooms. These prices were supply only and I fitted them myself,

[Staffbull]

Cant you just get them made to order at Jewson, they have a good quailty and well priced range made to order, and then get someone to fit them?

[johntyers]

If you consider that these salespeople sometimes work on a commission-only basis and paying there own expenses it gives a clue as to where they're coming from. No sale = now income. No excuse for how you were treated perhaps but at least you will have an inkling what you could be in for next time you ask for a quotation, or even just for free literature. My mother ( a wheelchair user) saw an advert for an electric wheelchair in a newspaper and requested literature about it . A salesman appeared with a swiss role which he shared with my M&D but in the end it turned out that the wheelchair would have been completely useless to her, but that didn't stop the salesman getting quite nasty with them because they wouldn't place an order. I suppose we live and learn.

J

[Tony Bryer]

FWIW I've just had five aluminium thermal break windows supplied and fitted by a local firm, total cost £1825. Largest was 1.8 x 1.0m.

[Dave Fawthrop]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:32:30 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

|On 2006-11-21 15:55:46 +0000, Dave Fawthrop | said: | |> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:34:41 +0000, Andy Hall wrote: |> |> |> |This does not mean that you have to take on the finance vehicle as |> |debt. Check the small print of the agreement and find out whether |> you |can pay everything back early. Some agreements have early |> termination |penalties, others don't. If interest free for six |> months is offered |another option you could try is to offer to pay by |> credit card and ask |for a further small discount after the price has |> been broadly agreed. |Finance companies hope that people won't pay |> the money back in 6 months |and they will be able to charge a higher |> rate after that. If |customers pay in 6 months, the cost of the |> money has to come from |somewhere, so either the DG company or finance |> company or both are |paying and that is built into the price. Hence |> you could quite |reasonably ask for a further discount based on not |> using the finance, |but a credit card instead. The DG company may |> want to cover |themselves to about 3% for that because of the card |> company cost to |them. |> |> IME the best way is to get the windows done a few at a time. |> Do the rottenest ones which *really* need doing first, in *cash* if |> possible. When you have paid for them get the next batch done. | |Doesn't help. What if they fall apart in two years and the firm has |gone bust.?

I chose a supplier who had been around for 10 years they are still trading.

|Cash = unsecured creditor with no chance of recompense

Make sure the job is a good one before parting with cash.

|Credit purchase = ability to pursue lender.

Pursue the insurance company which gives the 10 year guarantee.

[Clint Sharp]

Gnat's under £4000 for two three light bays with two opening lights each, front and rear doors, french doors and five other opening lights around the house, all uPVC with K glass. Included installation, lintels where necessary and making good around the french doors which were installed where there used to be a wall. Check out the FENSA stuff as well, IIRC you can get your local BCO to certify for a small fee if you self install so FENSA installers aren't required.

[Phil L]

That'll add a grand to any quote, the first thing they normally do is smash the glass, then saw through the frames, to get them out in one piece is nigh on impossible and they will charge extra for this.

[Owain]

Present yourself as a main contractor seeking quotes from a subcontractor.

You'll get trade discount and no fuss.

Owain

[The Medway Handyman]

I knew a guy once who sold photocopiers on lease during the 60's & 70's. The standard pitch was "you can have this for £15 a week". This figure of course gave them an extra large kick back on the lease as well as the profit on the copier.

Occasionally he would get the awkward git who wanted to buy for cash - this buggered their extra profit and renewal scam, so they tried everything to avoid it, including the "I'll have to clear it with the boss" ploy.

If they asked, he would ring the office & appear to plead & beg to be allowed to sell one for cash, telling 'his boss' that he would lose the sale otherwise. He would appear to be a good guy, trying to talk his boss into letting them get a better deal.

In reality it was the girl in the office he was talking to, not the boss. She liked to wind up reps involved in this practice by answering his questions with descriptions of the underwear she was wearing, how sexy she was feeling etc.

All good fun, until one day in a solicitors office, unbeknown to him, one of the partners was listening in on an extension in another office.........

[Handy]

"Mark_Sci" wrote: I'm currently in the process of getting quotes for double glazing for my home. I went to a well known National Company (beginning with 'A'!) and tried to get an online quote to give me a rough idea of what I could expect to pay. At the end of this process the internet site said that I would be contacted soon and low and behold, 5 minutes later, my mobile rings. You can probably guess the rest...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, been their, done that, and got the bloody T shirt. You can get pressure-free no obligation estimates from any other trade apart from SOME double glazing companies. The big nationals seem to be the worst. I found the best approach was to ask around relatives, friends and neighbours for recommendations, which came up with three local firms. I narrowed it down to two firms then went to their showrooms with my measurements to get a rough idea of the cost and to suss them out. That narrowed it down to one firm who I invited to come and give me a proper estimate, having already decided that this was the firm I wanted to use. There was no pressure from the salesman, his advice and the advice later from the surveyor was brilliant, they installed 12 windows and 3 doors and we are very pleased with the result.

[Andy Hall]

That helps and one should anyway, because it is one measure of stability. I would tend to do that anyway because I don't really want to have hassle with something and have to pursue the supplier of product or financial service in the courts, but I still want to have that option. Trading conditions change, businesses change, the premises has a fire, the owner retires or whatever - any of these can lead to the demise of a company that had otherwise been very good

Obviously one should do that as well anyway but a) it is no guarantee that the product will still be OK in 5 years time or b) that the supplier will still be trading.

Take very great care here because many of these are not worth the paper they are written on, simply because there are so many exclusions. By all means have such a guarantee, but don't assume that it is comprehensive. This is why having the ability to pursue, with statutory backing if necessary, a large financial services provider such as a credit card company is also well worth having as well. In fact, it's stupid not to have this extra protection when it's readily available.