DIY electrical work after 1st January 2005

[Dave Stanton]

If you do that, then the gov will pay you to be retrained, prob solved .

Dave

[JM]

BBC News seem to have done a better job:

[Tim S]

Doubt it... I certainly do not plan to pay for certification everytime I do something, which is likley to be lots of small jobs over the course of time.

I can't afford to pay a sparky for something I am well competant to do (unlike say, plastering, which I'm crap at, or plumbing if it means taking the entire CH to bits as opposed to running a couple of pipes).

So, if I see something that looks iffy, do I a) leave it as I can't afford a sparky or b) fix it??? Guess.

Someone earlier this year suggested a real beauty to tell the buyers solicitor in the event of enquiries to relevant certification. It went roughly thus:

"I know of no material deviations from the IEE Wiring Regulations. However if the buyer wishes to see certification or otherwise assure themselves, they are most welcome to arrange an inspection of their choice for which they will pay."

In other words, business as usual.

I expect Councils are too busy to randomly start poking around with this sort of thing. So they only other times it will come up AFAICS will be:

a) BCO down due to other works. He's unlikely to inspect beyond the job in hand. And with the c*ck up in colour changes, nothing is going to be obvious anyway.

b) Fire or electrocution and it's found out that you made a pigs ear of electrical work. But that's always been the case... I think if the police are about to bust you for making an installation dangerous and killing someone, after the amount of grief you'll be getting, Part P evasion will be the least of your worries. And if you're that useless with electrical work, you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Not a legal opinion, just mine.

Or go on a certification course and hire the equipment and do it yourself. Are there any C&G courses for this?

Timbo

[Uno Hoo!]

In any case - how can anyone prove just 'when' the work was carried out?

Kev

[Owain]

"Tim S" wrote | Or go on a certification course and hire the equipment and do it | yourself.

The point about this regulation is that you *cannot* do this.

| Are there any C&G courses for this?

(Yes, but) Irrelevant. You do not have to be qualified. You just have to be a member of NICEIC or similar scheme.

Owain

[fred]

I am a qualified practising Electrician with qualifications in the Wiring Regulations and Inspection and Testing of Electrical Installations. On 1st January I will need to get a building inspector to check that I have replaced a Socket Outlet in my kitchen correctly. The building inspector will probably be less qualified and experienced than myself. But its ok for me to replace someone else's Socket Outlet in their kitchen as long as I am working for a registered Electrician.

I cant go self employed because you have to be in business 6 months before been able to register with one of the schemes.

By "someone/reasonable", I mean me with...

[fred]

One point not often made is that you do not need to be a qualified Electrician to register with one of the part p schemes. Kitchen fitters plumbers etc will be allowed into the fold as long as they hand over the wad of cash and go on one of the courses.

[Tim S]

This came up before in a thread some weeks ago. I remember the consensus was that what you say is certainly true in the case of work done for reward.

That is, Pro's can only self certify by being NECEIC members.

The conclusion on doing DIY work was inconclusive, though a strong argument was made that anyone could certify their own work (for DIY) as long as they "were competant" to quote the IEE regs.

I'm the sort of bloke who if I were going to do this, might be interested in doing a specific course (assuming it's one of those 2-3 day things), then at least I can do it right.

I have no moral objection to installation testing per se, just in it being suggested that I have to pay someone else to do it every 6 months when I touch something.

I beg to differ, but I think the case of who can certify what for DIY work is still as clear as mud AFAICS.

All that's sparked this discussion off are a few media reports of varying quality. I think it's important to note that no new information of consequence is available.

I've seen nothing substantial enough, recently, to change my opinion.

Timbo

[Huge]

Hopefully, someone will scan all the appropriate paperwork and put it on the web shortly...

[Lurch]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:02:00 -0000, "fred" strung together this:

I've just decided not to bother, I can't work out what's meant to be happening, but whatever it is it'll cost me money so f*ck it, I'll just stop doing electrical work. I'd much rather devote my time to the data\telecoms\security side of my business anyway. I'll still be doing my own work in my own house though, once part p is deemed to be a total mess of confusion and extortion it'll be scrapped. (Actually it won't will it, it'll be ammended so that it costs more to be involved in it but makes no difference to safety).

[Owain]

"Tim S" wrote | The conclusion on doing DIY work was inconclusive, though a strong | argument was made that anyone could certify their own work (for DIY) | as long as they "were competant" to quote the IEE regs.

That is for GAS. (Not the IEE regs bit, but the "competent" criterion.) There is NO requirement for competence under Part P. After all, they're allowing NIC-only-one-person-in-a-firm-needs-a-qualification-EIC to self-certify.

(The main reason for a CORGI to sign off DIY gas heating installation is not the Gas Safety Regulations but Part L requiring somebody to sign that you've put thermostatic radiator valves in, and to qualify for some manufacturer's warranties on the boiler.)

| I'm the sort of bloke who if I were going to do this, might be interested | in doing a specific course (assuming it's one of those 2-3 day things), | then at least I can do it right.

The IEE do 2-3 day courses. However, you would also need the apppropriate test equipment which must be calibrated periodically.

| I beg to differ, but I think the case of who can certify what for DIY work | is still as clear as mud AFAICS.

It's quite clear(ish). One of the following applies:

- the work is within the definition of permitted work[1], not in a kitchen or bathroom or other specified location - DIY permitted, providing work complies with the Readers Digest Picture Book of Sockets and Switches.

- the work is carried out by a person [whose employer is] registered with a certification body eg NICEIC - operative self-certifies

- anything else, a building regulations application to the council is required

Much like windows with FENSA, etc.

Owain

[1] This is not necessarily the same as that covered by the IEE's "minor works" form of certificate

[Andrew Gabriel]

That's all covered by Part P in the home and it doesn't come under the list of exemptions in Table 1. I did mention in my original response during the consultation period that Part P should only cover Low Voltage (which is standard mains voltage), but my comments were ignored and it also encompasses all Extra Low Voltage, i.e. data/telecoms/security/aerials/etc. and none of these are listed in the exclusions from needing an accredited installer or a building notice. So you might want to make sure you get your structured Cat5 and phone extentions installed before year end ;-)

[James]

Do the traditional operators - such as BT - have membership of an appropriate approved body? On second thoughts this is a silly question - to meet the requirements only one of their thousands of employees needs to be a member for the organisation as a whole to qualify.

James

[Lurch]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:22:27 +0000, Andy Hall strung together this:

Yes, I'll look into a bit more tomorrow.

I already got that one figured, which is a PITA as I prefer to run the alarm panel on a dedicated non RCD'd radial rather than off of a RCD'd ring. Oh well, the pro's get shafted again while the cowboys go on as normal not giving a f*ck.

[Tim S]

Must be talking at cross purposes. Could be me, in which case I apologise.

Hireable I'm sure. For a fee. Which even for this should be less than a NECEIC bod doing it (£150 +/-50??)

I'm clear on this bit - "what type of work needs certifying".

I'm not at all clear on who can certify at the end of works for which a BR application was made.

a) Hire-for-reward professional sparky - must be NECEIC member in the firm, I think. Reasonably clear.

b) DIYer - not at all clear to me after following this discussion for months.

I've seen opinions varying from "get a bloke who could do a) to certify your work" to "anyone can write out an IEE test cert if they are competant and have correct calibrated test gear" to "random CEng/MIEE with test gear".

The last option was indicated verbally to me be be acceptable by one senior BCO. I hadn't asked about "certificate written out by anyone competant".

Assuming that for DIY, one does do a BR notification where required, what seems highly unclear is who is allowed to certify your work (you/a random engineer/paid-NECEIC-sparky). I suspect that will be subject to much variation depending on council.

I'd hate to get into that(!)

Timbo

[Christian McArdle]

Yes. You must have been a member for 6 months before you are allowed to join. Medieval guild pure and simple.

Christian.

[Andy Hall]

I wonder if they have initiation ceremonies. Rolling up of trouser legs, that type of thing......

[Ed Sirett]

What I think will happen is that two housing markets will develop - a fully certified & in A1 condition. Which the younger, better and well refurbished houses will tend to belong to. The less informed, the wealthier and the less adventurous (in any combination) will buy these.

The other market will be for those who have to, wish to or want to buy 'uncertified' property. Which might be anything from a house with needs a rewire to one which need rebuilding.

[Ed Sirett]

Blimey, Part P is dead before it's been launched! It is unenforceable, imcompetant governance, and going to be observed in the breach.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Doesn't answer your question, but when I did 16th Edition regs, there were a couple of BT engineers on the course. Actually, only about half the attendees were electricians; the others were telecom engingeers (not just BT), alarm installers, heating installers, someone working on street lamps, etc. The irony was that most of the electricians were having a hard time following it, whereas all the other trades were following along with no difficulty at all. I don't actually know who passed and who didn't, although a couple of the electricians did comment this was not their first attempt. The same happened on the PAT Testing course -- it was the electricions who didn't know the difference between milliohms and megohms, something which the course teacher teased them about several times, and commented that this was normally the case whenever he tought the course.