Dangers of connecting load between live and earth

(flame guard on)
Please tell me (and others who don't know) the dangers of connecting a load (lamp, motor, whatever) between the live (230V) and Earth (instead of Neutral) in a standard supply.
In know it will cause the RCB to trip, but where there isn't such a device, and considering that the load will be powered, what are the dangers?
(I know that it by-passes the electricity meter, ie if the neutral connection is removed, it can't measure the voltage therefore no consumption!)
(flame guard off)
Thanks!
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On 3 Sep 2003 04:48:40 -0700, Abdullah Eyles wrote:
<snip>

I'm afraid it doesn't! As long as there's a live feed through the meter and a neutral that goes back to the company main fuse, your electricity consumption is measured.
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The voltage on the earth may rise, giving life threatening electric shocks to those touching metallic appliances. This will particularly (but not exclusively) be the case if using a TT earth system with a disabled RCD.
Also, can I suggest just paying the electricity bill rather than attempting to steal our electricity and putting up our electricity price you selfish c*nt.
Christian.
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attempting
Why don't we tell him to go ahead and do it? That way we will get rid of him when he electrocutes himself.
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I regularly electrocute myself - keeps the heart going
--
geoff

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I was testing a couple of unknown jumbled mains circuits in a large junction box yesterday and touched one that should have been isolated or so I thought. Well Hey, that's why I was there testing everything. In through my right arm and out through my butt. A real sore one. It don't half pull muscles where I think muscles shouldn't be pulled. Felt as though I heart burn and pins and needles for a couple minutes afterwards.
One installation I remember from a few years back, saw a single phase roller shutter motor that was connected across phase and earth because the guys that installed it used multi-core cable with no actual green/yellow marked core and looked as though they'd mixed the numbering up. Well it didn't half cause problems with the computers in building. Every time the door was used, the computer screens would all go wobbly and looked as though a magnet had been placed beside them. One of the sockets in the goods inward area was giving everybody a shock when they plugged anything in. A floor heater used to get hotter when the door was raised and colder when the door was dropped. That was a weird effect that really got me excited.
It actually took a couple of hours to find the culprit because everything we touched was live and it meant we had to isolate everything individually and completely until we found where the fault was. When we found it, we couldn't believe that it was something so simple as a mix up between a number six and a number eight core in the multi-core cable. A couple of hours and a lot of hassle and danger for something so simple.
So Abdullah, make sure you use the correct connection on any electrical installation. The dangers are many and not just to life and limb. The cost of repairing damaged equipment because of wrong connections is also rather expensive.
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BigWallop wrote:

Also if there was an insurance claim (EITHER FOR PERSONAL INJURY/DEATH OR PROPERTY DAMAGE) the insurance company might be unsympathetic. It might decline to pay the claim in full or reduce the amount; on basis that problem was caused by an electrical problem that the owner was aware of and should have had repaired? That has actually happened! PS. Wiring errors: Apart from safety, due to a wire colour mix-up (or ignorance?) we had a three phase motor running 'backwards' (I figured for months)! When the phases were reconnected, correctly, the motor, now running 'forward' driving an air circulating fan blew accumulated dust in ducts over every thing in my department. We sent the staff home and lost four hours of production! Strangely we didn't get any dry cleaning bills, although were prepared to pay them!
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"Terry" wrote | PS. Wiring errors: Apart from safety, due to a wire colour mix-up | (or ignorance?) we had a three phase motor running 'backwards' | (I figured for months)!
We have that to look forward to when we harmonise our wiring colours with Europe.
Owain
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No. Harmonisation was done with a significant concession to the UK. Harmonised 3 phase wiring will now be in three colours, not two ambiguous ones.
Christian.
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I know that electricity can be stolen by that method because I work in a company making electronic electricity meters - one of our targets is to reduce electricity theft by using techniques such as AMR and pre-paid metering systems.
I know how to work with electricity, maybe not as much as yourselves, but I have been working in high voltage switchyards for almost ten years installing SCADA systems.
The question was asked in order to explain to a inexperienced friend of mine who connected something wrongly - I realised that I couldn't answer the question myself (ashamed grin...)
And to think that a burglar (c*nt or p**ck) would knock the door and tell you he came to steal your valuables! LOL
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Abdullah Eyles wrote:

I must've missed way too many lectures in the ac theory modules. I can see how you *could* make a meter that behaves that way, but I just can't see why you *would*. Please (anyone) enlighten me.
--
Grunff


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"Owain" wrote in message

Powering the meter's internals is one thing: measuring the energy consumed is another. For the latter you need to sample both voltage and current. P V * I * cos(phi)[1], then integrate over time using electronic or mechanical counters. A minimum of 3 terminals is required; in practice 4 are used (with a neutral commoning block) for convenience of wiring.
Electronic meters do have backup batteries to maintain clock times (for multi-rate tariffs) and provide non-volatile storage of the registers.
I have [2] an electronic Economy 7 meter made by Ampy Automation and have noticed that the LCD display goes blank if there's a power cut. It looks as if the battery holds up an absolute minimum of electronics.
[1] If you want to be pedantic, V & I here are the RMS values of the fundamental frequency components of voltage & current. (Harmonic currents contribute to apparent power - VA's but not watts - so shouldn't be metered).
[2] 'spose that should read "EDF have, in my house"
--
Andy



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"Andy Wade" wrote | "Owain" wrote | > Couldn't meter electronics work in the same way as timer | > lightswitches that don't need a neutral? | Powering the meter's internals is one thing: measuring the energy | consumed is another. For the latter you need to sample both | voltage and current.
Ah, yes. <tears up patent application for fraud-proof meter>
Owain
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reduce electricity theft by using techniques such as AMR and

I'll let you off then. ;-)
Christian.
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attempting
In addition to Christian's delicate opinion on defrauding the supplier (!) (whether that is your intent or not),
a) the physical problems he refers to in his first paragraph are hugely amplified by the fact that someone else entering the property (for whatever reason - emergency, illness etc.,) will not know this has been done and, indeed, will assume that it has been wired correctly. To put people in this position is selfish and antisocial.
b) this sort of activity drives the legislative process to restrict more and more the ability of competent, responsible and unselfish DIYers to do their own work. On this NG this is regarded as BLOODY antisocial. I count this as a danger.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
  Click to see the full signature.
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Abdullah Eyles wrote:

a
You have read the dangers. Now a real story. My fathers house (wooden construction) has been running everything through an earth for many years. The first real problem occurred a couple of years ago for the very reason another poster pointed out, the earth wiring was not heavy enough for modern day loads, the wire became red hot over a length of about two feet and set fire to the cavity it was in, luckily the earth failed completely and the fire went out (how, only God knows) I have since replaced the earth lead with some f'ing great fat earth and everything works again. So in twenty or more years only one fire which could have been foreseen and didn't (by luck) hurt anyone
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I hope you installed a neutral also? Genuine TN-C systems aren't particularly suitable for domestic situations.
Christian.
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Christian McArdle wrote:

Oh, yes the neutral lead is there too.
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