Damp Walls due to outside eartwoks

[Martin Carroll]

I am considering buying a property (for investment purposes - redevelop and sell on). It has three floors and is situated on a hillside, it is also Grade II listed.

The property is in a middle row of three rows of terraces, each terrace has a front garden which has a level that is roughly in line with the

1st floor of the next lower terrace. /\ / \ / \ / \ | | /\ |______| / \ | | / \ |______| / \ | | | | |______|______________|______| / | | / |______| / | | | |______|____________| |

The back walls of the two lower floors have some damp (inevitable I guess given the layout) and one of the neighbours volunteered the info that they all suffered from the same problem.

Given that a number of these properties have been bought and sold over the last few years I am assuming that buyers are not having problems raising finance but I am slightly nervous that I could spend the money doing the place up and then have problems selling it.

I guess it might be possible to treat the back walls somehow to give the internal decoration some protection (as in the tanking done to cellars).

Any thoughts on the wisdom of pursuing this project?

Cheers

Martin

[AlexW]

How did your neighbors fix it?

If you have a serious amount of damp the simple tanking / waterproof rendering may not work all that well as it will could push the water around and is suceptible to punctures sealing problems unless it is done proper. Also tanking internally can be pretty disruptive.

FWIW my damp story...

My house has earth upto 1st floor level on the gable end and we have a stream behind us and a reservoir or two above ... a similar situation very damp.

We went for internal tanking by a pro company after gutting the whole place including breaking up replacing the ground floor. They came in and tanked the apt area's with delta membrane and installed a land drain to drain any accumulating water away from the tanking. It cost a bit but they did do a good job and quickly which was key. You could of course do all this yourself with the right materials, tools and effort. I watched them do it and its all doable! However I now have a garuantee for when I sell on, which was a factor for me.

A word of warning though ... I spoke to several damp & timber co's and some were a right bunch of cowboys who were just in work creation mode and actually were clueless in some aspects of what they suggested. I went with someone who our estate agent knew personally - hardly cast iron but better than nothing, and it turned out well.

I also considered doing the work from the outside, excavate tank down to below the footings (if any!) introduce land drain (which the levels allowed in our case) and back fill with stone. I didn't go that way as the walls of my house are thick and it would have taken a long time to dry internally. Additionally the land needing excavation was not mine ... which was an unwanted complication.

HTH,

Alex.

[bigcat]

redevelop

Hopefully there's more to this than you've told us, but if not I'd have cold feet already. Why?

1. Developing a grade 2 listed is a criminal offence.

1. Just doing it up is as well if you dont consult the CO and follow their wishes - and they are very fussy indeed. I mean expect to be told what colour to paint the windows etc.

2. Listed properties are a poor choice for do up and flog projects.

1. Tanking wet walls is an inappropriate treatment for period buildings, and not one youre likely to be permitted to do.

2. If the building has had any previous mods without LBC you will become legally liable to do all necessary restoration work when you buy.

1. Work on listed properties takes a lot more time and money than on run of the mill housing.

Now hopefully you have considered and can answer all these points already. If not, go to

begin to learn. It really is necessary you understand what the deal is with listed properties, or you'll get burnt. They are not quick in quick out deals.

NT

[Owain]

It's doable - anything is doable given unlimited time and money - but I would be hesitaant about doing it to an investment property.

Does the earth actually butt up against the wall of the lower terrace, meaning the lower terrace has no windows on the back wall? I would be concerned about loss of light, overlooking, etc and from recent personal experience would not consider buying any property that had a large quantity of rock and earth at high level waiting to slide into the garden.

If it's really lovely and you like it and will live in it, fine, but you can guess what your Auntie Beeny would say.

Owain

[Martin Carroll]

Perhaps 'developing' is too strong a word. The material structure of the building does not need to change. The inside has not really been touched for about 40 years and needs completely modernising,

I would expect to consult the relevant authorities at an early stage.

Not if they can be purchased at a good price, are in a very desirable location and can be sold on with a reasonable profit.

That is why I asked the question.

There are no previous mods as far as I can tell.

This is something that I will have to consider before deciding whether to take the project on.

I will certainly check this out, thanks for the link.

Cheers

Martin

[Martin Carroll]

Yes, there are no windows in the lower 2 floors at the rear.

It is not too live in. I am considering buying it to modernise and sell on (hopefully at a profit)

Martin

[Martin Carroll]

In article , AlexW writes

The thing is that the neighbour seemed to intimate that is something they all live with. And believe me if you saw the house you would understand why they are prepared to put up with it.

I will have to investigate this further.

Martin

[The Natural Philosopher]

Stop right there. No listed building unless of extraordinary attractiveness, is a conmercial proposition for a do-up-and-sell.

Cost of major fixing of a listed building can be 3-4 times the cost of demolish and re-build.

[bigcat]

Its posible I might have got the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds like you may have got the wrong end of the stick. The whole point of listeds is that they do not get and may not be modernised. They are like walking into the past, the long distant past.

Some mod cons are permitted, such as heating, a sink, electricity, indoor toilet. But beyond that I would assume nothing. Certainly the upgrading of electrics may be refused if it involves crossing decorative plasterwork etc. Wood powered cooking ranges normally may not be removed.

Unless I've really misunderstood, if you think a listed can be modernised for a profit I suspect you really need to understand all about listing. Owners and convenience do not come first with listed properties, not at all. If for example the doorways are all 5'5", and you're 6', too bad. You would not be permitted to alter them, and risk prosecution if you do.

Understand clearly what youre getting before you get it, and find out just how big a difference there is in work costs. Take an example: say you need to replaster a partition wall. On a new house it would be PB and skim. On a listed you would need to:

Talk to the CO, who will dictate what you may do and how Wait months for permission Have the plaster analysed to find out its composition Coat the framework with straw held with wooden pegs, exactly as the original, or oak laths etc Plaster over this straw with your plaster mix, one ingredient of which might take you days of searching to find Finish using the same technique, which often means finding a specialist plasterer that can do it. Paint with antique white distemper, which of course is a premium price specialist paint, needs more coats of paint, and requires the right painting technique, and is not very hard wearing.

Now its not always like that by any means, but thats the sort of thing to expect some of the time. Still up for it? If so, great. But if you were hoping for a quick buck, I would be quite doubtful. There are lots of dilapidated listeds about.

NT

[Tony Bryer]

There are many cases where extensive alterations and/or extensions are done to listed buildings. The real difference is that with ordinary building the presumption is (in theory anyway) that changes should be allowed unless there is a good reason to refuse them whilst with a listed building the presumption is against change and where it is allowed there will probably be very strict requirements for any work that is to be done.

That's all too true.

[Anna Kettle]

This is well worth doing. Walk round the house with them and they will tell you what you can and can't do

True, unfortunately

Shouldn't be necessary

[1] But remember that the techniques used are very low tech and if you are prepared to ask questions here and get stuck in then you should be able to do lots yourself. The big question here is how do you cost your time, cos the work will definitely take longer (so bought in labour costs are higher) than it would on a new house

Or ask here and I will tell you where to find it

Of course! How would I make a living otherwise. But see [1] above

Not true. Distemper and limewash are dirt cheap cos you don't pay for prime time advertising. That is true of lots of the traditional materials. Its the labour which is expensive

True

True but see [1]

Distemper isn'tat all hard wearing, thats why it is only used for ceilings. Limewash is hard wearing

Very true. Doing up a listed building for profit is something to be thought about and costed VERY carefully.

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England |""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs / ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc |____|

01359 230642

[Martin Carroll]

Hi

Thanks for the response.

I guess that the one redeeming factor in the property that I am considering is that it isn't that old (approx 40 years or so). What happened was that an existing terrace of houses fell into complete disrepair and were rebuilt to look externally as they did originally.

Internally nothing much seems to have been done since it was rebuilt, hence the requirement to "modernise". I do not think anything major need doing internally, although to make the space more liveable then the kitchen could do with moving to the ground floor. This is something that seems to have happened in a number of the other properties in the row. I do realise that this would require a listed buildings consent and that this is by no means guarantied.

I have spoken to the Heritage officer today and she sounded sympathetic to what I was talking about (although I do realise this is different to actually getting permission to do anything).

What I do need to do is to be as thorough in my research as possible and then make a decision. I am not looking to make a quick buck, although obviously I don't want to do it for nothing. The end result I am looking for is to make a beautiful property habitable and also to make a little money at the same time.

Cheers

martin

[Owain]

Depending on what and when was listed, the 1970s gas cooker might not be allowed to be replaced with a wood-burning range either :-)

Owain

[bigcat]

yes - many times longer. Thats the issue. Also oak laths cost many times PB, some materials are pricey.

Who sells distemper dirt cheap? I know in principle its a low cost paint, but not seen anyone selling it at anything less than take-advantage prices. I suppose you could make your own, more hassle though.

I used it on walls at the last house. Its not bad wear wise, but it will never last as well as emulsion. One wash with a hot soapy cloth and it all comes off. I gather distempers vary a fair bit depending on the recipe.

It was fun putting it on, have to develop a twirling technique. Forget to twirl and it goes on the floor instead of the wall.

perhaps he really can make it pay, I dont know. He's probably gonna need to spend a fair amount of time online learning how to do stuff though.

NT

[Peter Parry]

And pray they don't move out of the job before you finish because the next one can, and will, give entirely different instructions.

Indeed, it should also be remembered that the stake in the ground occurs at the date the building was listed, not the buildings age - so if that was 1970 that nice hardboard wall nailed over an oak panel can't be removed to put it as it would have been in 1870.

[Rick]

I would gess the chances of stopping the water get in a zero.

Its gonna add to the costs, there are membranes that you fit between the wall and the plaster, that drain the water down the wall to a sump. Not massivly expensive.

The channel tunnel is designed to leak, and drain in this manor described above, but on a bigger scale, so it must work.

Rick