Copper pipe and cabel - cheaper when?

[Tim S]

Anyone have any insight into when the massive drop in bulk copper prices this year is likely to appear in end products like tube and cable?

Been watching screwfix and nothing's changed much.

Cheers

Tim

[Andrew Gabriel]

You might see it in the plumber's merchants and electrical wholesalers first, although they can be quite pricey in the first place. I've not looked recently though. Actually, I'd probably expect it in the likes of Wickes and B&Q after that, before Screwfix which I imagine has more long term fixed pricing due to its catalogue. All just guessing though, as I haven't looked around recently.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Never?

Loads of people have bought forward contracts in copper.

By the time the depth of the recession is fully appreciated. The oversupply in the metal will be worked out, and raw prices will rise again.

[Rod]

When I was in the trade counter the other day, SF had a notice advising reduced prices on, I think, cables dues to lower copper prices. (It is possible it was tube or tube and cable. Not buying at the moment so no personal interest.)

[Mike Dodd]

My local branch (Preston, Lancs) - same notice, on both cable and tube (waiting to get served, nothing better to do than read all the notices).

On the face of it the prices weren't substantially cheaper - maybe something like 10% - but then I guess the value isn't just in the weight of the copper.

[Mike]

A lot depends on forward buying and raw materials (and stock) in the supply chain. Demand is down and supply is overhung from earlier very high production levels.

Follow the trends here.

of November is a reasonable prediction for a price drop, the new year is a dead cert.

[Tim S]

Mike coughed up some electrons that declared:

That could be quite good timing. I need a bit of cable now, but the pipe can wait until the new year.

Now all I have to do is find a CORGI person who doesn't want 1200 quid (labour) to install and commission a boiler (just the boiler, I'll be doing the rest).

Or I'll be doing that myself too.

Thanks for all the comments folks!

Cheers

Tim

[BigWallop]

How much does it cost for British Gas to do system check? Do you have to be under one of those contract thingies with them, or do they do a one off visit?

[Tim S]

BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:

Any CORGI person will do.

A "landlord's" would probably be the most thorough generic inspection - but they didn't do a flue gas check or pipe-leak tests (but then I didn't ask them to) when I had one done. A hundred quid or so IIRC.

The "gas safety check" I had done once was even less convincing in it's thoroughness.

If you're thinking what I'm thinking, I'm tempted to follow the Gas FAQ and install the ruddy thing myself, then book a check afterwards for the peace of mind, requesting pipe leak tests and flue gas checks.

The Viessmann installation manual is clear enough, my soldering skills are now upto it and most of the pipe is outside. It has to be about the easiest possible installation in the history of boiler installs (because I've designed it to be easy!). I had the written quote today: 2549 all in. The boiler and appropriate flue kit costs 800 all in, online.

So that's 1749 labour (I know, overheads, taxes, tools, CORGI etc - but even so...)

The actual job is roughly:

Run 10m of 22mm copper gas, mostly outside on surface of wall. Run inside for about 3m to avoid doorway.

Tee off 1/3 way along and through wall for cooker bayonet connector.

Cut flue portal in cavity wall (ground floor, no ladders)

Hang boiler, connect gas and flue.

Connect 2x 3m or so run of copper pipe to thermal store (that will be in and commissioned by then, by me).

Refill store, bleed (all open vented)

Leak tests on gas, pressure checks as required etc.

Connect boiler to terminal box next to boiler provided by me (I do all the electrics) - that's permanant L,N,E, call-for-heat L, L,N,E to remote pump.

Commission boiler, check system operation.

-------------- No need to remove old boiler - just cut the gas pipe off.

So, does 1749 seem expensive for the above?

Seems so to me, but I'm open to a reality check.

Anyway, I think part of the problem is the bloke says he doesn't understand thermal stores (he's honest, he's also Viessmann trained which would buy me an extra 2 years warranty) but he doesn't really need to. Perhaps his uncertaintly is causing him to bung a ton of contingency into the fee.

I'll draw it up on a diagram, and ask for a requote, then try for a second quote from someone else.

This is why I DIY - so much work to get something done at a reasonable price!

Cheers

Tim

[dennis]

Legal. However some boiler manufacturers are being a pain.. Ravenheat give a three year warranty if its fitted by a Corgi engineer but not if you do it yourself. I suspect that this is an unfair condition if someone challenged it in court. They also state it has to be fitted correctly just to cover for the stupid Corgi engineers that are out there.

£500 for a new boiler but if I fit a condensing one I also need new rads. I wonder how much CO2 the new rads cost? That's not a combi BTW, I don't want a combi.

[Tim S]

dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:

Part of the advantage of using a thermal store being the decoupling of boiler from radiators. Having spoken to Viessmann technical (who are very helpful and don't ask for CORGI roll numbers!), they've told me I'll be fine charging the store to 75C (hotter the better), but if I can arrange for the return to be in the region of 45C or less for as much of the time as possible then the boiler will operate at peak efficiency. Combining a mixer valve and a speed controllable pump, I'm hoping to be able to satisfy that, with a less efficient burn towards the end of the cycle to get the water up the last 10C. (45C return = 65C flow according to documents).

The boiler will be switched on and off in a giant hysteresis loop, which should help matters.

There's going to be a bit of suck it and see about this, but I'm largely confident, given there's plenty of scope for tuning things after the fact.

Cheers

Tim

[John Rumm]

Saw the same notice in ours the other day - it did mention pipe and cable. The reductions were fairly small though.

[John Rumm]

I think I would want that to include the price of the boiler ;-)

Tis what I did last time.

[John Rumm]

If you are not buying it direct from Ravenheat then you have no contract with them, and their Ts & Cs are not really relevant. Your claim is on the retailer.

Are your rads already bordering on being undersize? If not I would be tempted to try it as it is first - you may find them large enough for the vast bulk of the time.

[Tim S]

John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:

Oddly enough, I'd budgeted 400 for the install (expecting 400-600).

1700 blew my brain.

I haven't had time to do an in-depth on what I need to do (I really expected to contract this one out), so can I run this by you?

Major things I need to consider:

a) Manometer and spray for leak testing pipe/joints as per FAQ;

b) Pipe sizing - well it's 22mm gas pipe all the way, for the same length of run as the current boiler, so that should be fine.

c) Dynamic gas pressure test at the boiler.

d) Flue suitable distance from opening windows,doors etc - I know this is OK. Plus mesh guard as flue is 1.7m off the ground.

e) Check flue gases with hired meter (burner is factory set, so I'm not sure if this is strictly necessary?)

f) Test for flue gas leakages? (I assume go sniffing around with a detector???). Or do we assume the flue is good if we assemble it correctly?

Thanks in advance;

Tim

[dennis]

True, but its a lot easier if you can just phone for a service engineer.

They wouldn't meet my original design with a mere 30C temp difference, they have 55C ATM. Their outputs will be about 50% less. Just as well its designed to work down to -10C or it would be very undersized.

[geoff]

In message , Tim S writes

Ed Sirett isn't too far away from you

[Clint Sharp]

In message , Tim S writes

There was a note on the counter of my local Screwfix on Sunday that says the prices in the catalogue are now wrong due top the price of copper dropping and they're happy to pass the savings on.

[jim]

Tim, May I ask how you went about spec'ing and finding a supplier for the thermal store?

The bit about a thermal store decoupling the new boiler lower output temp from the existing radiators has caught my eye - just fallen out with a "professional" after 1 day - so back to square 2!

thanks Jim

[Tim S]

jim coughed up some electrons that declared:

OK, it's been a long process.

A mate has one of the DPS units

based in Epsom, Surrey).

I've also looked at Gledhill and McDonald Engineers.

Pricewise, the DPS units seem very expensive for a copper tank, but the prices I've been quoted do include all the pumps, mixer valves, auxilliary heaters and paraphanalia, so I guess that stuff adds up (I've not broken the price down).

The unit I'm looking at is a CXC-210-AH6ADA-XEJD which you can stick in to the box near the bootom of their web page to get a schematic up (though I'm still fiddling with options). Cost, quoted at around 1700 inc VAT. That's a

210 litre system.

A Gledhill BMA215 is around 1300 for a complete system, but lower water capacity.

McDonald is the cheapest at 900 ish for a Thermflow 210.

DPS seem the most clued up to speak too and the flash designer does allow a pretty custom system to be put together. They're happy to have a visit if Surrey is anywhere near you. McDonald are Scottish and I forget where Gledhill are.

What I'm looking to do is:

Direct heating of open-vented thermal store from boiler. Twin tank stats and a bit of relay logic by me will provide a boiler call-for-heat signal. Boiler will control the pump on the primary circuit.

Same water runs via a mixer valve (top drop the temperature) to the rads off its own pump, controlled by the heating programmer/stats (multiple zones).

Another take off runs round a plate heat exchanger to provide mains pressure potable hot water - this circuit's pump is driven by a flow switch on the HW to taps circuit, so nothing to do here really - it's automatic.

I'll bung a solar coil in at the bottom, just in case I go for some panels in a few years.

Also, I'm adding 3 x 3kW immersion heaters (code above shows 2, mistake) as back up if he boiler's out of action. 9kW will go some way to providing HW and heating a couple of rooms (any couple, by turning some rads off) and it's a cheap option. These will be wired individually to 3 MCBs off one isolator, which will be used to engage back up electric heating.

=====

What it gains me is:

No cold water tank (I don't have a loft as such and our mains water is reliable).

Mains pressure drinkable hot water.

In theory, a simpler boiler setup where the boiler has the best chance to run efficiently with a long full output burn (perhaps this is less of an issue than it used to be, but it might make the boiler last longer).

I can run the rads and HW at different temperatures.

Solar input.

Cheers

Tim