Condensing Combi boiler price drop

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I have heard a rumour that in 2005 new government regs will insit that new boilers being installed be even more efficient. And that this in turn will lead to a price drop. Has anyone else head of this?
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wrote:

There is a note on the ODPM Building Regulations web site that the government ould like to see the bar raised on minimum SEDBUK efficiency from 78% to 86% this year. One issue would be the timescale that the changes to the legislation or schedule to it could be changed.
The implication would be that non-condensing boilers would then disappear from the market. Thus manufacturers would be in a situation where their entire production would have to be of condensing type. They would of course be competing for the same market space and would want to maintain market share.
Up until now, condensing boilers have commanded a small to substantial price premium partly because there is a small incremental material cost, there is a recovery of development cost and because the market will stand a price premium.
I suspect that there would be a range of low end boilers built to a price point that would replace the current low end and mid range conventional models. I don't see a reason why manufacturers would drop the price on their premium products unless they see a market shift that reduces their volume on those.
Since a lot of people buy on price, I think that the more likely scenario is that manufacturers would introduce very basic condensing products to fill the price gap, or bomb the prices on existing models and introduce new ones at the higher price points with new features and/or quality. .andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

"Would like" is a bit vague. No commitment to legislation and will Labour even be in power then? Seems unlikely it will happen..
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Ah, but did they specifically rule it out in their manifesto, and have they "introduced specific legislation to prevent it"?
If they did, and they "have", then you can be sure it'll be in the next Queen's speech, if indeed they are writing that particular document (by then).....
-- Richard Sampson
email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
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wrote:

Who knows.
That's why I said "would" rather than "will".
I don't believe that this involves huge legal gymnastics and primary legislation.
I suspect that what happens will be more influenced by whether it is a vote winner or not at that stage. A small proportion of the electorate will be interested in the notion of moving further towards the Kyoto Protocol, but I suspect the majority would be more interested in outlay vs cost saved aspect.
.andy
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Next year? the elections not for a while. And they will still be in power, as they are doing a brilliant job.

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wrote:

I'd be 99% sure it will happen. Now that the installation of boilers is controlled by the Building Regs they only need change the regs which doesn't need legislation, and if they want it to take effect mid-2005 that would suggest bringing out the changed requirements late this year to give adequate notice.
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Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
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BillR

The makers are all geared up for it, having had advanced warning.
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This sort of thing is driven by the civil service and it moreorless independent of which colour lot are in power. It will happen in April 2005 provided the appropriate paperwork can be made ready, otherwise probably be in 2007.
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new
will
Not so. No-flame boilers are here that do not condense or give out a nuisance plume. Also, what looks promising and appear likely to be introduced is the Zeolithe heat pump, which runs on natural gas for the provision of domestic heating and hot water. Currently these units are floor mounted and resemble a typical boiler in appearance. Zeolithe heating appliance's use less energy and are more environment-friendly than electric heat pumps and gas boilers. It provides considerably higher output levels than the current conventional and condensing boilers. Carbon-dioxide emissions are reduced by approximately 20 to 30%.

I have heard that many existing models would have basic on-off controls and the upmarket models, load balancing modulating burner controls. We shall see.
Instantaneous multipoint water heaters appear to have escaped this regulation, or have they? Currently may of these, all are over 100,000 btu/hr, are under 78% efficiency. Most are non-electric, so work in a power outage, but forced fan flue models are available improving efficiency, with controls as per any simple boiler.
Have one of these connected up to a 200 litre open vented cylinder, with a flow and return and a high head bronze pump on the return to the multipoint and the cylinder will be heated up zippo directly. Have a part L coil, or bigger, in the cylinder and the CH can be run off this using a pump. High pressure showers? off the flow have a tee to a shower mixer and have a flow switch in this before the cylinder on the flow have a 2-port zone vale which will close when flow is detected and bring in the pump and multi-point serving the shower only. Oh and put a phosphor descaler on the return (feed) to the multipoint. Multipoints are easy to descale anyway. Just unscrew the heat exchanger and take it out and rescale as normal.
Cheap and simple, with boiler cycling reduced, or eliminated, good pressure showers, super fast heat recovery of cylinder water.
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Presumably, overall system efficiency is higher than even a condensing storage system, so banning them was considered unfair.

multipoint
You are joking aren't you? Besides, this use would probably redefine the multipoint as a boiler, quite apart from the fact that it would prevent the use of inhibitor and probably fall foul of the water regulations as you'd want to connect this lot up to the mains, rather than being sealed.
Christian.
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a
No. I have seen it done.

The term boiler is now defunct. You are marked down in CORGI test for using the word boiler. It must be water heater.

No need for inhibitor as the appliance is meant to be used with fresh water. In the USA cylinders are used as a store to take to the heating system. This setup does not do that.

Where?
Who said sealed. Read again. In an open vented cylinder.
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There are a few, but they are not approaching main stream at this point, and we are talking about a conservative industry.
I am not sure where the notion of 'nuisance' with respect to a plume which is often small arises.

That's nice, but they are not likely to be in mass production with significant market penetration for a while.

That would be an obvious differentiator.

They're called combis aren't they? The 21st century answer to the geyser.

.andy
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It happened with my previous boiler. The plume was quite remarkable, starting at the ground floor and under still wind conditions being visible above the ridge of the roof. If the wind was right, the fumes would certainly enter the windows, even though the windows were well above the required distances from the terminal.
Christian.
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:19:44 -0000, "Christian McArdle"

Accepted, but as you said before with the new one, the plume is a lot less remarkable, indicating that it is possible to design so that most water vapour collects internally.
.andy
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wrote:

visible
Even the slightest plume would be a nuisance on many flats in towns and cities.
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The current plume is a mere wisp which dissipates within 30cm of the terminal. It is barely visible. If it is installed within the allowed limits from windows, it would be fine.
Christian.
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IMM wrote:

Very good point. Also in flats, where small combis are very popular, I've seen several combis installed where there it would be extremely difficult to get a drain connection for a condenser.
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:09:05 +0000, BillR wrote:

In general I don't think this will be such a restriction since 90%+ are installed in kitchens (IME) and the bulk of those are near the sink (so they can access the cold main and DHW pipe work. I'd reckon on at least 75% being straight forward to get a condensate drain connection.
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I think you're exaggerating the extent and impact of this.

.andy
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