Condensing boilers rule?

[Rob]

Whilst having a gas stove fitted the other day, I was talking to the boss fitter about central heating and he said the rule about all new boilers having to be condensing after next April has been postponed for several years. He claimed to have been to a Corgi meeting where it was explained that it had been dropped because condensing boilers are still very unpopular due to doubts about reliability. He wasn't trying to sell me anything, but he did say he found the Baxi Potterton combi (non-condensing) with hot water reservoir was very reliable. Does he know what he's talking about (on both counts)?

Incidentally, after his men had made a neat job of fitting the Yeoman gas stove and left, I read in the instruction booklet that a spillage test should have been done, as well as a burner pressure test with all other appliances turned on, and the result recorded in the booklet along with the signature of the installation engineer. Well, nothing has been recorded, and they didn't ask me about other appliances, so I assume the tests weren't done. Is this just fussing by the manufacturer, or should I follow it up? In the way of most tradesman I've dealt with in this area I would expect them to just bung it in, light it up and say the job's a good 'un, though as installers for the biggest gas fire showroom in the area they presumably know what they're doing.

[Andy Hall]

If you believe what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is saying (a risky strategy admittedly), he is incorrect.

see the exceptions assessment:

are allowed for various situations.

Perhaps this is what the guy is talking about. There is still an old wive's tale among some installers that condensing boilers are unreliable. This used to be the case with early UK designs, but those from Germany and Holland were good. Most of the new products originate from designs or including components from Germany and reliability is much better..

As you can see there is a points system in the exceptions assessment, and it wouldn't be too hard for people to reach the 1000 point threshold in some instances.

Not if they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations and instructions. Did they do a gas soundness test? This involves connecting a pressure gauge and testing any drop in pressure with the gas turned off at the meter. The details are slightly more involved as far as the procedure is concerned (see Ed's gas fitting FAQ) but that is the principle.

If they haven't done these things then they should be pulled back to do them.

[Christian McArdle]

Anyone who wishes to install a Poxi Batterton clearly knows nothing about modern technology.

The problem was that they used to make good boilers. Then a few years ago, they stopped. All these conservative plumbers tried their useless condensing models and thought that condensing meant bad, when it just meant that their chosen manufacturer was unable to produce a reasonable model.

Christian.

[Rob]

> However, see the exceptions assessment:

No exception for me then - a condensing boiler would fit very easily and the neighbours aren't near enough to bother about plumes.

Well, I know they didn't turn the gas off at any time when fitting the stove, because I asked them. I think they might have done the test you describe after disconnecting the old gas fire and capping the pipe until the new stove arrived, but I've got nothing in writing. I think I'll speak to the shop that sent them. To be continued...

[Andy Hall]

>>> However, see the exceptions assessment:

>>

I guess for the majority of cases, it will be a replacement boiler in the kitchen.

However, there are some where the exemption points exceed the threshold.

I was discussing this the other day with my parents, who are due for a replacement boiler in the not too distant future.

They currently have a back boiler in the living room and because of the house layout, it is literally in the centre of the house.

So, there are 590 points for property type and fuel A new boiler would have to go into a different room - 350 points An extended flue of >2m would be needed to do that - 200 points A condensate pump would be needed - 100 points

1240 points total

Whether they would be able to get a new back boiler is another thing, of course.

[Tony Bryer]

No. The assessment procedure for determining when a non-condensing boiler will be acceptable after April 2005 was published last week:

installer has to consider the various places where a boiler might be installed. A number are automatically considered to be impracticable (e.g boiler in principal living room that does not include a kitchen). Then you add up the score (following numbers are for mains gas):

Flat: 710 Mid-terrace house: 640 Other house: 590

Resiting of existing boiler required: +350

Flue extensions >2m required: +200

Condensate pump or soakaway required: +100

If the score for any possible location is 1000 or less then a condensing boiler must be installed

[Christian McArdle]

Are there points if there is simply no alternative location? (And current location is totally unsuited to a condensing boiler) Do you have to install electric heating instead?

Christian.

[Tony Bryer]

Yes, if you look at the actual document I referred to, there are a whole load of locations that you can just cross off without scoring. Apart from the ones I mentioned, others include needing flue extensions >4m, where a flue extension would run up or along the main elevation or where it the flue termination would cause a nuisance (e.g. facing a highway or footpath at low level)

[Rob]

That's my situation exactly.

They must be available, because the fitter in question said he fits a lot of back boilers to run CH systems in this area (or probably more over Barnsley way where everybody had coal fires until quite recently), so I think that's at the root of his confusion over the condensing boiler regs.

Update on the stove: the shop man initially said the manufacturers are covering their backs by insisting on strict testing, and didn't think it was necessary. He said the gas main pressure's the same everywhere so doesn't need to be tested (which I doubt), and couldn't see why the supply had to be tested with all appliances on. I guessed that if the pressure was a bit low, the gas stove could go out if the cooker, CH etc all came on, then fail to re-light when they were switched off, and he sort of understood that. He said they couldn't have connected the stove without turning the gas off - "they wouldn't mess with a live gas supply, so they must have a way round it." I finally got him to agree to talk to the manager about possibly sending someone out to fill in the test results (and possibly even do the tests first!) when I pointed out that Yeomen were unlikely to stand by their guarantee otherwise. Why is it so hard to get anyone to do their job properly these days? Is it any wonder people attempt DIY jobs that are beyond them - in many cases they couldn't do it any worse than the "professionals" (present company excepted, of course!) If you disagree, let me tell you about my roofing repair (but I really would recommend you don't ask!) Rant over, for now.

Thanks Andy

Rob

[Rob]

Rob

[Mike]

> Exceptions are allowed for various situations.

Interesting reading. Can anybody tell me what a condensate pump is and how it avoids rotting away in a few months ?

Also it mentions a condensate soakaway. The guy at the Environment Agency told me these are not allowed where I live. This may apply to others but isn't mentioned here.

[Capitol]

IME they have never in the last 40 years produced a reliable long lived boiler!

Regards Capitol

[Andy Hall]

It's a plastic reservoir with a pump and float switch. These are widely used in air conditioning systems for when it's necessary to get condensate from the internal unit to an inconvenient exterior location.

In the context of a condensing boiler it needs to be constructed from parts able to resist the slightly acidic condensate. This implies plastic or suitable metal (e.g. stainless steel) parts.

The boiler will deliver the condensate downwards into the reservoir, then when nearly full the float switch activates the pump and empties it over some distance and height if needed.

That would imply joined up government.........

[Ed Sirett]

Looks like a back-boiler in a flat can be replaced with a non-condensing unit then. Elsewhere a back boiler can be replace with a non-condensing unit provided the only locations would require long flues or pumps etc.

[Ed Sirett]

Agreed. Profiles were the last OK model from them.

[IMM]

>

Only if there is no other alternative for a condensing boiler. With long flue lengths and condensate pumps, it would be difficult not to find a suitable location.

I find that ridiculous. Long flue lengths act against a condenser. Regular and condensers both can have very long flues. Long flue length should not act against a condensing boiler at all.

As most plumber are ignorant of boilers. Most will probably not know that some boilers, like the Keston, can have extremely long flue lengths.

[IMM]

Tripe!!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

My Kingfisher RS is approx '77, and has had one new thermocouple. And a set of O rings.

Couldn't really ask for better.

Of course it hasn't been taken apart once a year 'for service' as the IMM clown recommends...

[James]

Would it be impossible to position it in a bedroom, with the flue going through the loft/roof near the gutters (and therefore no extended flue), adjacent to the bathroom/downpipes - and hence no condensate pump. Of course whether you would want it in a bedroom is another matter.

James

[Mike]

Ours is from 1985 and still running well. Guy comes to service it now and then but even before he's opened it he always remarks it won't need anything - and so far it hasn't.