Condensing boilers- inside info

[Peter Scott]

A CORGI-registered installer, who is also a trusted acquaintance, was installing a bottled gas supply for my cooker. I got chatting about changing my oil-fired boiler to Calor as it is getting old and oil does not seem likely to come down in price soon or ever. He said 'don't'.

His experience, and that of people he knows, is the new condensing boilers have poor reliability. He thinks that the rushed and ill- conceived rules resulted in poorly tested boilers. Apparently before long all new oil boilers are also going to have to be condensers and he thinks that problems could happen with them as well. He advised me to install a new oil boiler before the new regs, if I thought I might go down that route. He has given up boiler installations for the time being, until the equipment improves.

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Peter Scott

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[Rod]

"Peter Scott" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Have you checked the price of Calor against that of oil? (On a 'per KWh' basis.) Last time I did so, oil suddenly sounded quite cheap. In fact, it got surprisingly close to electricity sounding affordable.

And just why should a condensing boiler be so much less reliable than a non-condensing one? From what I have heard, if it has the name Poxi- Batterton that might be sufficient reason.

[Doctor Drivel]

He is right and he is wrong. The best condensers have:

- top mounted pre-mix burners,

- one piece heat exchangers,

- bottom mounted flues from exchanger.

The better makes have these: Glow Worm condensers, W-B Greenstar, Ideal Istar/Icos, Keston. These are dedicated condensing boilers, designed from scratch only to be condensing boilers.

To get their existing models in line for the April 1st deadline many makers added on a secondary heat exchanger in addition to the existing non-condensing heat exchanger, and still normal bottom mounted rail burners. This converts them to condensers. AVOID these converstions like the plague.

For e.g., Ideal have converted many of their models to condensers, yet have the superior dedicated ICOS and ISTAR range, which cost about £80-100 more. That difference is buttons.

Dedicated condensers are NOT less reliable than others. They are the same as non-condensers except they have condensate drain connections and larger heat exchangers, that's all. The controls are identical in most cases. When the burner is top mounted they don't require cleaning, the condensate washes down the inside.

Your friend needs to know what models of boilers to fit. LPG is not cheaper than oil from what I understand, although LPG boilers are much cheaper than gas to but=y and fit, so capital savings go a long way to pay for any extra LPG cost. Oil condensers are just not worth it as the fuel saving is small to gas condensers, and the price hype is "large".

[chris French]

In message , Rod writes

Suggestion I've heard is that some manufacturers have brought some boilers to market with not enough experience of them or of rushed designs which have been lacking in some respects.

However there are companies such as Worcester, Vallaint etc. who do make reliable condensing boilers

[John Rumm]

One of those rare occasions I would agree with Drivel!

The change in the law will to an extent reinforce the old wives tale about poor reliability. We had got to the stage where many of the condensers available were properly designed 2nd/3rd generation models with good reliability. The older designs (i.e. lash ups based on existing conventional boiler designs) were dying out. Now of course all the makers will be rushing to "fix" their existing model ranges to be compliant - causing a step back to dodgy technology in many cases.

[Andy Hall]

I'll send the van.

This was done a few years back when the 78% requirement happened. Some achieved this by making the pilot electronic.

It is fairly easy to work out which manufacturers have bodged though. Most seem to have properly engineered products now...

[Doctor Drivel]

Oh Good. Free boilers.

Do they? Have a closer look.

[Doctor Drivel]

You have to all the time, as I know infinitely more than you in most things, and of life too.

Just follow my guide on boilers. BTW, is what I suggested in the FAQ? I think it might be buried somewhere.

[Andy Hall]

I guess that that'll be your next ploy.

Naturally this would only apply to brands that are worth buying. I wasn't talking about the tat that's left on the shelves in your branch because you believed the rep and over-ordered. Will he allow stock rotation or are you going to have to sell it out?

Watch out folks. August's hare brained scheme will justify a way to use what DimmPlumb has in the warehouse.

[Andy Hall]

It should be........

[Doctor Drivel]

[Doctor Drivel]

Figures, as you advocate poor quality equipment.

[Christian McArdle]

Not really inside info.

A large proportion of CORGI installers are disciples of Mr Ludd, who bought some tat by Messrs Poxi and Batterton ten years ago and think that all condensing boilers are crap, when they're not.

I can't recall in this newsgroup, which is full of boiler complaints, many problems with Worcester Bosch Greenstars (excluding the CDi secondary converter) or Vaillants Ecomaxes.

Christian.

[Andy Hall]

If a manufacturer has been consistently producing a good quality range of condensing products of several generations over many years then it is worth buying from them.

If they are modifying crappy old designs, then it is not worth buying from them.

Pretty straightforward.

Try to focus on the products and their quality and not what you heard from your plumber customers this week or from the rep.

Happy customers are more important than that trip to Eyebyeza you know.

Two reels of PTFE tape please.

[Andy Hall]

You can make many accusations, but it's a stretch, even for you to accuse me of advocating poor quality anything.

Two gold plated combis please.

[Peter Scott]

Thanks for all the comments. Seems like my mate needs to do a bit of research as he's only partly correct. Thanks for the information about good brands. I'll certainly pass these on.

Looks like its time to do some more research into relative fuel costs.

Peter Scott

[Doctor Drivel]

Do you know what PTFE is used for?

[Andy Hall]

Sure.

However, I guess you know it by the catalogue number in the till...

[Doctor Drivel]

Stop making things up.