Compact fluorescent lamps failing

[Andy Hall]

Generally, the UK is useless at the commercial exploitation of invention.

In this case it was a good idea because it's not commercially or environmentally viable.

I don't see any difficulty with that.

This is all pipe dreams. Tinkering around the edges with irrelevant nonsense rather than just moving ahead and dealing with the major issues that can easily be fixed.

At some point it won't be. Provided that it is put into an environment that will be stable for the period required to achieve a safe level of emission, it is a non issue.

Political will is also missing in not moving ahead with an agressive deployment of nuclear energy production. All the time that there is titting around with silly windmills and environment wrecking tidal schemes, focus is not on the central issues.

Probably. Either that or simply buy the energy.

The point is that it needs to be put into context. Perhaps the figures should be deaths per megajoule per annum or some similar measurement that related energy production to human cost. That should be relatively easy to quantify.

With respect to the Windscale fire, this clinical study is interesting.

the greenies at FoE don't claim more than 100 related deaths (which haven't happened) and that was a situation with very early technology that hasn't been used in decades.

[Man at B&Q]

Try achieving the same %age in England with it's *much* higher population density and there would be an outcry over the environmental impact.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

Are you comparing like for like? Space available for storage? Gas usage?

What is "a fair amount of time"? Long enought to see them through a major political crisis that results in the pipelines being shutdown for weeks? Months?

MBQ

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:57:08 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-

The environmental impact of a wind farm is very low, despite the desperate attempts of the antis to dredge up everything they can.

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:08:50 -0800 (PST) someone who may be "Man at B&Q" wrote this:-

The renewables figure for the whole of the UK is now something a little under 5%. Given that there is little hydro electricity outwith Scotland I think we can assume that a fair proportion of that is wind.

Population density in Scotland is rather more varied than in England. However, the central belt of Scotland has a pretty high population density compared to most of England and it has not been an insurmountable barrier to the largest wind farm currently operating in the UK (Black Law) or the largest one currently being built (Whitelee, AKA Eaglesham Moor).

The environmental impact of a wind farm is very limited. Some concrete for the mast foundations, Macadamised roads, a substation. That's about it.

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:14:02 -0800 (PST) someone who may be "Man at B&Q" wrote this:-

As near as one can compare such things. The difference was that the party politicians had the will in Germany, while in the UK they put their hands up and mouthed things like, "our policy is that we have no policy" and "the market will provide."

IIRC somewhat more than one month, but probably not as much as three months. Note the way gas prices shot up in the UK but not in many other western European countries.

[Andy Hall]

The environmental impact of a wind farm is *not* very low. The windmills are worse than having power pylons marching across the countryside, and that's bad enough. In order to generate worthwhile amounts of energy, vast numbers would be required and they would be completely unacceptable environmentally. The environment does include visual amenity.

Far better to do what M. Sarkozy is doing this week, and assisting Mme. Lauvergeon with persuading the Chinese to have nuclear power stations rather than coal ones. Even the idiot Brown has figured that one out, although in his case, it's a diversion from his other troubles and incompetences.

[Frank Erskine]

The threat of a wind farm almost spelled the end of a (very small) airfield near here, used mainly for parachuting and skydiving.

Fortunately the application for windmills was rejected.

[Andy Champ]

Bird Strikes. Especially on big rare ones like eagles.

It rather looks as though the right places for them to avoid this is the places where the wind is least!

Andy

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:26:59 +0000 someone who may be Andy Champ wrote this:-

Provided the wind farm is sited properly there are not mountains of dead birds at the foot of the turbines. The RSPB has a fairly sensible policy

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:59:56 +0000 someone who may be Frank Erskine wrote this:-

I note that you have failed to mention an environmental impact.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:08:30 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-

Ah, proof by assertion again.

And there we have it. No rational argument, but instead an argument relating solely to appearance (no matter how it is dressed up). Glad we have got there at last.

I like their visual appearance (and I have seen the largest wind farm currently operating in the UK at Black Law), but opinions vary. That is why surveys are carried out.

is a gathering of some of these surveys. There is a small (but loud) minority against them.

I'm sure much the same sort of people objected to the "visual intrusion" of hydro-electric stations and the associated transmission lines in Scotland some decades ago. Very few people now complain about them.

[Andy Champ]

Nice link, thanks.

They've put in objections or concerns on about 200 applications. I wonder what proportion of the total that is?

Andy

[Andy Hall]

Please list how many would be required and in which locations in order to be able to generate 50% of the UK electricity demand.

Others don't.

BWEA. Hmm.... that's an impartial source.......

I expect that they are more concerned about other parts of the country now.

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:06:30 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-

1) I don't recall suggesting generating 50% of the electricity from onshore wind. Part of the reason for this is that, at current prices, any more than around 20% would be increasingly expensive to integrate with other sources of supply. 2) "Myth: Tens of thousands of wind turbines will be cluttering the British countryside

"Fact: Government legislation requires that by 2010, 10% of electricity supply must come from renewable sources. Wind power is currently the most cost effective renewable energy source in a position to help do that. Around 3,500 of additional modern wind turbines are all that would be needed to deliver 8% of the UK's electricity by 2010, roughly 2,000 onshore and 1,500 offshore."

3) I am not a builder of wind farms and neither am I in the planning department of any UK council. Therefore the location of the 2000 additional turbines is not something I determine. However, I have welcomed the one that is to be built in the area.

Nice try. However, the evidence presented by the reports does not just disappear because you type a few words. I note that you were unwilling or unable to challenge the briefing sheet.

Those who read the briefing sheet will note the organisations who had the surveys carried out. They will also find a link to the older surveys at

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:08:51 +0000 someone who may be Andy Champ wrote this:-

I suspect not as high a proportion as some think. One could total up the projects on

to get a figure, I can't be bothered.

During my visit to Black Law the loudest noises to be heard normally were those made by the birds and the lambs. People talking were louder on occasion. Motor vehicles on the public road were rather louder than any other noise. The birds were flying around happily and there was no carpet of dead birds.

There have been a small number of cases where there have been excessive numbers of bird deaths. The last I heard was one in Norway, where there had been no problem with earlier phases but there was with a late phase.

While the RSPB has a fairly sensible policy, that does not mean that individual local activists do not mangle it for other reasons.

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:08:51 +0000 someone who may be Andy Champ wrote this:-

I forgot to add that, given the planning systems in use in the UK, the way to at least have one's voice heard is to make an objection. In a number of cases these are holding objections which are made and then withdrawn for a number of reasons.

Some further amplification:

"Myth: Wind farms kill birds

"Fact: The RSPB stated in its 2004 information leaflet Wind farms and birds [13], that "in the UK, we have not so far witnessed any major adverse effects on birds associated with wind farms". Wind farms are always subject to an Environmental Impact Assessment. BWEA members follow Best Practice Guidelines and work closely with organisations such as English Nature and the RSPB to ensure that wind farm design and layout does not interfere with sensitive species or wildlife designated sites. Furthermore, a recent report published in the journal Nature confirmed that the greatest threat to bird populations in the UK is climate change [14]."

is the 2001 report by English Nature, RSPB, WWF-UK and BWEA which looks at the issues in England and provides what is in effect a checklist. There have been some changes since then, but it is still worth looking at.

[Andy Hall]

So what would need to be installed to achieve 20%.

Governments can go. Legislation can be changed.

So to get to 20% would require 9000 of these eyesores.

That's nice. Are you planning a little celebration for it so that it feels at home?

There's no need. The information comes from a source that is not disinterested and therefore cannot be taken at face value as presented.

[Frank Erskine]

With a bit of luck...

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:19:40 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall wrote this:-

It would require say 2500 of these fine looking machines onshore and say 2000 offshore.

Those who take the trouble to read the information offered will note that the surveys were commissioned by a variety of organisations. These include the Scottish Executive and part of the nuclear lobby (the DTI). Should you wish to information is provided to enable you to look up every survey.

Nice try.