Community Defibrillator provision

[Martin Brown]

I live in North Yorkshire and the ambulance response time to remote regions varies from slow to piss poor. There is a joint NHS initiative to install community defibrillators in such locations including our parish. The community is expected to pay for them and NHS for the box - the cost is roughly £1000. Brief description here:

My initial reaction was that this should be a good idea, but concerns have been raised about legal liability of the parish council, its members personal liability and the personal liability of any well meaning Good Samaritan who tries to use it on a heart attack victim.

There is also the question of training would be users. I have heard everything from voice activated instructions so no training is needed to a days training will be given to a select few.

I'll ignore for the moment the possibility that the victim has bad indigestion and not a heart attack as I have been assured by the NHS that these cPADs are smart and will not defibrillate a good heart.

In this litigious era where every other daytime advert is along the lines of "have you been hurt in an accident that isn't *YOUR* fault? Then phone greedy lawyers for a greedier you" where do we stand on public liability for hosting such a device? What about the user?

Assuming here that the heart attack victim lives but with some serious damage or dies and the family blame the use of the cPAD for it. They get a no win no fee ambulance chasing lawyer involved - then what?

Anyone have any experience of these things positive or negative? What are the longer term hardware maintenance costs?

(cross posted to uk.d-i-y to get any feedback on installed units)

Web search hasn't turned much else up and I would prefer not to rely entirely on the NHS proponents of this initiative for all our advice.

[Nightjar]

I saw one of these demonstrated on television. So far as I can see, it is a virtually foolproof system that has been designed to be used by just about anybody.

[Jethro_uk]

Once the need for defibrillation has been established ....

[A.Lee]

Indeed. 2 people have died in front of me recently. I asked about some training in case it happened again. From a Cardiac Team Nurse : "An AED is a fantastic piece of kit as long as it's used by trained operators. The last price I saw quoted was around the £1200 mark, that also included training for up to 5 people.

An interesting stat I read a few weeks ago about trained A&E staff on finding a pulse on an unconscious casualty, 70% couldn't locate one! even though it was present. Which gives the occasional First Aider with rusty skills next to no chance."

So, they are fine if used by someone with training, utterly useless, and maybe causing more damge if used by untrained general public.

[Phi]

We have first responders.....who are trained nurses.

[JimK]

.......And the trained guardian found, roused, and rushed to the scene umpteen miles away?

who fetches the mc from the 'location'?

Who/what stops scroates nicking the machine?

Could be another 'lip service' this..

Jim K

[Chris Hogg]

Don't know much about them, but there's been an active campaign running in West Cornwall for some time. See

from six months ago.

It was my impression that the PAD machine itself analysed the casualty's heart-beat and gave simple instructions to the user, so there'd be no risk of someone being 'shocked' who's heart was beating normally, but I might be wrong on that.

[Fredxxx]

On my last First Aid training course, it was stated that a first aider has never been sued for providing first aid. It would be interesting if that is really the case.

These defibrillators are meant to be smart enough not to injure a patient. Even so, if the individual has been trained and competent, then I don't see how negligence can follow.

I'm sure it is not beyond the capability of the Parish Council to obtain insurance. It ought to be cheap!

[Peter Percival]

Do you mean that as a result of seeing it on television you formed that opinion?

[DerbyBorn]

Fredxxx wrote in news:lplrm1$ii2$ [e-mail]:

One that I am aware of is in a locked case that can only be unlocked using a combination given by the ambulance service - then they will be on their way. (However, it recently got stolen)

One at work - volunteers trained to use it - given instructions about shaving hairy chests.

[DerbyBorn]

Theft:

[Jonathan]

There are several around here in South Warwickshire, including one on the w all of our village pub.

Jonathan

[Adam Aglionby]

Has no one been in an airport recently...common sight.

From another forum; " have had 6 people have heart attacks in the time we've had them (3 millio n people per year footfall - it's nothing that we're doing!), 4 of whom hav e been saved by the devices"

"They're a pretty incredible piece of kit. The size of a lunchbox, and anyb ody can use one! Come across an unconscious non-breathing casualty, grab th e defib, open the lid and it tells you what to do. Place 2 sticky pads wher e the label on the pad shows you (one on the right collar bone, one on the left side of the body near the bottom of the rib cage - if you get them the wrong way round though then it knows and can switch around) and let the ma chine analyse the heart rhythm. It'll tell you if a shock is advised, at wh ich point you just stand back and press a button. It then does a metronome count for 30 compressions, before repeating the process over again. It won' t let you give a shock if it's not safe to do so"

In summary, ignorance is a killer, the sooner you can get one fitted the be tter.

[AnthonyL]

We have one in our old red telephone box. The cost was around ?1000 and there are maintenance/running costs involved though BT maintain the power for free. We got the money to pay for it through one of the

100's of grants that are available to villages with worthwhile projects.

Whilst many in the village have been on a 2hr session that was a couple of years ago and there is no "trained and competent" individual nominated. You call 999, they identify the nearby presence of a defib unit and give you the code for it if that is what they see as the emergency. You or someone runs off to get it whilst hopefully someone else is administering CPR which appears to be the most important thing to keep going.

I'm not sure that it is a Parish Council responsibility or liability.

The defrib unit doesn't have any affect on someone who doesn't need it. If it is not all done correctly then someone who was going to die anyway (or at that point is probably clinically dead already) dies.

That was my recollection of it all. I'm sure my wife remembers less than me which is worrying.

[F Murtz]

It decides for you.

[tony sayer]

In article , JimK scribeth thus

Shit as they say happens.. I don't expect you'd get a lot for one down the rub a dub somehow..

Not really..

Well as they say in gods chosen county "owt's better than nowt" and if it were me I'd hope that someone was brave enough to give the machine a try at least..

Tried asking the makers of such devices for their opinions and or a letter to the health authority as to whether or not they could indemnify you against any claims?. Or more likely than not a shopping centre or railway station they sometimes have them.

These are more commonplace these days so I suppose some cases may have come to court theres a damm good website for those sodded if I can remember the name, will post if I find it but I except you really need something better then what we the DIY mob can come up with.

Having said that one of my daughters did CPR on a bloke a few years ago and kept him going long enough for the pros to take over, he did survive the event:)..

She like other daughter did benefit from what at first might appear to be a bit of a social club the good ole St John Ambulance:-)..

[tony sayer]

FWIW a mate of mine (now moved away) was a first responder out in one of the villages to the north of Cambridge in the Fens, where it can be a while before an ambulance gets there. I do know he has used the machines before and described it as a doddle..

[spuorgelgoog]

I presume Mr Bignell was referring to a programme a little more scientifically thorough than Ideal World ...

Owain

[spuorgelgoog]

Mmm that's risky, all sorts of possibilities for cuts and infection :-)

Owain

[bert]

These things come with talking instructions. It is the device itself which decides to shock, not the operator. The training consists of how to switch it on and how to attach the pads. Oh yes and shout "shocking" if the machine tells you to.