Church sound system.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

My brother is involved with his local church which desperately needs a decent sound system.

The church is traditional Victorian which held perhaps 1000 in the days of pews - but now has movable seating so it can be used for other things in the week. Also the minister no longer preaches from a pulpit which has been removed anyway - he roams throughout the congregation, on a personal radio mic. He also carries a radio hand mic for contributions, etc.

They've had several quotes, and the approaches are very different. The most expensive involves a phased array of speakers in the roof - all at a single point, as it were. With some sophisticated computer control. This is very much favoured by some due to looks - rather than having lots of small speakers on the walls.

My feelings are that such a phased array could work very well with a fixed position for the minister - like a pulpit - as indeed did the existing line source columns either side of where the pulpit was. But am not convinced it will be fit and forget for a roaming minister.

I'm not a church goer so have no direct experience of such things. So any comments?

The very fact that 'church' recommended installers all have different approaches doesn't fill my brother with confidence. As the outlay will be a major one for a now much reduced congregation.

[Martin Brown]

Phased array and all of them installed at a single point seems to me like a contradiction in terms! All the phased arrays I have ever worked on used either a linear or rectangular grid of spaced out antennae.

I think they would have to take a look at similar churches with the different systems installed. The interior acoustics could also be very problematic in some churches with stone walls, big windows and floors having insanely long reverrrrrbbbbeeerrrraaattttiiiooonnnnn times.

I'd be more inclined to go for conventional sound reinforcement with four or six speakers depending on the size of the room. Perhaps by using some sort of inoffensive flat panel speakers.

[GB]

If the congregation is that small, should they look for something simpler? A couple of loudspeakers on stands that can be moved around where needed?

Indeed, should they look for a smaller church?

[spuorgelgoog]

What are the acoustics like?

Single point phased array can be very good in difficult reverberant environ ments and can 'beam' sound where required, but is expensive.

Any system will be liable to feedback when the minister wanders about with a mic.

It's a shame pews have been abandoned otherwise pew-back speakers could be used (even if the pews were movable, they could be plugged in to a speaker feed).

My frst question would be how long is the church likely to survive using th e main sanctuary for services, if numbers are falling. This will affect wha t is sensible to spend. Also, how much of the demand for better sound is fr om people using hearing aids as inductive loop or infra red might remove so me of that demand. Headsets could be available for people who have difficul ty hearing but don't use an aid.

Owain

[charles]

My daughter's church - although a completely different type of building - has just had a new sound system installed. It seemed to work very well when I attending the re-opening service.

Make contact via

another possible place to try would be Conevans

Although they nominally provide "deaf aids", they do much more including "classroom systems".

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

What is that supposed to support? Just services, or all sorts of other activities?

It seems odd to me that a group who have falling numbers are even contemplating spending a huge amount of money on something like this; have they lost sight of (what I presume is) the purpose of a church?

If having the minister roam through the congregation makes it hard for some people to hear, why don't they stop the roaming and seat the people who have most difficulty hearing closest to the minister (and a more modest PA system)?

If they must amplify everything, speakers in a fixed location seems nuts to me, because they can't readily be adapted to do anything else. What's wrong with speakers on stands, or small ones on brackets at various points? I can see that it might be sensible to prewire the building so that there are audio feeds to lots of different parts of the building so that speakers can be plugged in as needed, making it a bit more versatile than the sort of single-purpose PA system churches traditionally had.

Sophisticated computer control means lots to go wrong, and a relatively short lifetime for the controller unit, so an ongoing cost (even if that's every 5 years, or every 10 or whatever).

[cpvh]

cent sound system. The church is traditional Victorian which held perhaps 1

000 in the days of pews - but now has movable seating so it can be used for other things in the week. Also the minister no longer preaches from a pulp it which has been removed anyway - he roams throughout the congregation, on a personal radio mic. He also carries a radio hand mic for contributions, etc. They've had several quotes, and the approaches are very different. The most expensive involves a phased array of speakers in the roof - all at a single point, as it were. With some sophisticated computer control. This is very much favoured by some due to looks - rather than having lots of small speakers on the walls. My feelings are that such a phased array could work very well with a fixed position for the minister - like a pulpit - as inde ed did the existing line source columns either side of where the pulpit was . But am not convinced it will be fit and forget for a roaming minister. I' m not a church goer so have no direct experience of such things. So any com ments? The very fact that 'church' recommended installers all have differen t approaches doesn't fill my brother with confidence. As the outlay will be a major one for a now much reduced congregation. -- *Broken pencils are po intless.* Dave Plowman [e-mail] London SW To e-mail, change noi se into sound.

It depends not only on the building, but also on what else they do or don't want to amplify. The churches i've been part of in the last 30 years or s o have mostly had a reqirement for apmplifying and balancing a worship band as well as the preacher/minister(s). Whether if fixed buildings or rentin g halls, a couple of speakers on stands at the front has generally worked w ell, though I imagine it would be difficult to appease people aesthetically in some situations.

have done installs in an awful lot of sacred and secular buildings all over the country, and h ave their heads screwed on.

[F Murtz]

I would also suggest that you should run a few turns of cable round the whole church to form a loop and feed it with another amplifier as all the ancients with hearing aids usually have a switch provision for hearing with induction

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Typical traditional church of that period with high vaulted roof. Only real difference (from the build time) is it is carpeted throughout.

I know it can work well from having heard it at concerts, etc. With the sound coming from a stage. Which is the major difference.

Quite. And my experience says multiple speakers spaced round the hall will make this less likely.

Like many churches they need to be used for other things during the week to survive. Pews are invariably fixed - and even if not would be very heavy to move - and awkward to store. Stacking chairs are the norm for this sort of thing.

There is already an inductive loop fed from the existing system. Been there for many many years.

The only thing approaching a church I go to these days is various crematoriums. Many are similar in shape to churches, although generally smaller than this one. They all seem to have decent speakers at intervals down the walls which not only cope with speech but music too. Although any readings do tend to come from a fixed mic position or two.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

They've had around half a dozen quotes all from Church of Scotland approved contractors. Who all seem to have very different ideas on how to do things. Hence this post. ;-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

You don't go to church, do you?

You're not involved in a church, are you? ;-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That was done perhaps 50 years ago.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

There is more than enough setting up required already without adding to it unnecessarily.

You don't go to church, do you?

[matthelliwell]

I've got to agree. The CofE, for example, would be much better off it it so ld its old Victorian churches to sympathetic developers.

The trouble is, every man and his dog who once got married in the church 30 years ago and has never been back then pops up and starts complaining. The n there are the members of the PCC who don't like any change and would have a heart attack at the thought of moving to a new building.

[charles]

which is why I though David Evans might be worth approaching.

However, as he's in Reigate, I doubt if the would want to go a few hundred miles north to do a site visit.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Well, that's one way to kill it instantly. If an aging congregation have difficulty getting to a local existing church, do you really think they'll be happy travelling miles to a new location?

As with most inner cities there simply aren't lots of building plots available. So any move would likely be a long long way.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Not currently but I've sung in lots. However it's true to say that these almost exclusively had what one might call traditional types of services (C of E, Episcopal & C of Scotland mainly)

[GB]

No. Were I to do so, would I have a better understanding of why congregations hang on to buildings far too large for them?

I did watch Rev to try to find out why, but all they showed was that the local Muslim community was thriving whilst St Saviours had about a dozen bums (literally!) on seats.

[Mike Barnes]

I don't think anyone said anything about moving miles to a new location.

Building plots? Why the need for a new building?

[GB]

Does the mic position make that much difference to the speaker system you choose? Presumably any system will have feedback-prevention built in?