Church electrics.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

My brother is on the buildings committee of his local church. Like many it's suffering from an aging and therefore reducing congregation.

To try and supplement the churches income, most of it - halls etc - is available for hire when not needed for church business, and has been for many years.

For some reason, they've been asked to provide a certificate of electrical safety for the entire premises. Some new requirement, as it's not been needed before. Although all the equipment has been PAT for some time.

As with many older churches, the electrical installation has been updated and extended as needed. It has never been totally re-wired in one hit. All work carried out by (I assume reputable) local contractors. Definitely no amateur or DIY installations. Any maintenance done by non pros restricted to changing bulbs and tubes.

The survey was done last week by a local contractor. Reported verbally to my brother who was present that they'd found some problems, and would do a full written report - which still hasn't arrived.

One thing they did mention there and then was an absence of any RCD protection. And that in the church hall, there were fluorescent fittings which weren't earthed. Those fittings were installed many years ago to replace pendant tungsten - and by a local contractor. They are some 15 ft above floor level so not possible to be touched by a member of the public.

Be interesting to see the written report and what they say is necessary remedial work. You'd hope local tradesmen would always do the best deal for a house of God - but sadly this isn't always the case.

I've had to rely on what my brother tells me - it's too far away to have a look myself.

Anyone know what regs apply these days?

[Andy Burns]

actual problems, or merely things which don't meet current regs?

Out of interest, why?

[David Lang]

Especially if the local tradesman is an atheist.

[Tim Watts]

Who is this "local contractor", have you paid him and did you instruct him to do an EICR (electrical installation condition report)?

If you haven't paid him, give him a deadline. If you have, give him a shorter deadline for the report.

Post a link to the report here (redacted where required) if you want some practical guidance.

Apart from earthing, stuff does not have to be brought up to the current

17th Edition regs. So you are mostly looking for Codes 1-3:

The only other thing I am not sure of, is if any sockets accessible to the public ought to be RCD protected. That is probably less of a regs issue and more an insurance (your public liability) issue.

But that can be remedied easily by replacing the socket fronts with ones with inbuilt RCD protection.

[DerbyBorn]

At one time it was quite common for such places to bann people from bringing in electrical items that had not been checked. Couldn't apply that now!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That's what I don't know. There will obviously be things which don't meet current regs. But in domestic premises, this doesn't mean they have to be rectified. What I dunno is if this also applies to public buildings.

It's a community asset? Good publicity if they do a good job at a decent price? Lots of people would know about it?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I've a feeling it is used as a band rehearsal room and also the odd disco etc at say a wedding reception - so not really practical to ban items which haven't been checked.

[charles]

It doesn't in our village hall - which has regular inspections. There's plenty of older installation stuff there.

[Adrian]

Public liability insurance, at a guess.

...yet...

Has there ever been an electrical survey which DIDN'T find "some problems"?

Any outdoor sockets, or is anything ever used outside and plugged in inside? (Of course it will be...)

Either way, it seems like a reasonably smart upgrade to do.

Shouldn't be hard to sort.

Same as anywhere else, I'd have thought. But the insurer's requirements and the legal electrical requirements are two different things.

[charles]

RCDs. Our Borough has a rule - which must be 30 years old -that requires sll sockets which could be used by bands to have RCD protection. This is a consequence of a death at Surrey University when a performer held a microphone stand which had become live - and was killed. Quite a sensible rule if the kit coming in hasn't been PAT tested.

[Martin Brown]

Usually the insurers want to see it every now and again.

I expect not having any RCDs in a public performance space might raise eyebrows.

[Scott M]

Most trades, unless part of the congregation, will probably put 10% on their bill to cover the palarva of dealing with churches:

• endless declaring of penury and wanting a cheaper quote

• odd phone calls and queries from the "committee" over a 10 month period while they cogitate - decisions never happen quickly

• god help you if it's installation of new equipment - this will get the congregation involved, all of whom will object in the strongest possible terms to *anything* being done (and who usually find they actually like it after the event)

• being overseen on the day - some ancient retired chap with waaaaay too much time on their hands who will stare unspeakingly or start digging through your toolbox to find something to help him fix something else in the place

The best story I heard was from when comparing notes with a chap refitting PA kit in our local. A church had phoned him up wanting to know if a quote they'd had was still valid - *seven years* on.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Interesting take. I can't really comment from first hand experience.

I do know they got a quote for a new sound system which got passed on to me for comment, since that is more my field. And the markup they added to fairly mediocre equipment was excessive. This by a consultant recommended by the C of S.

[Brian-Gaff]

I guess once a cowboy, always a cowboy, unfortunately! Having said that, the business of earthed fittings is a bit odd as some of them used to at least suggest they were double insulated so one might think they would not need to be earthed. Very much depends on the type and age and condition of the units. Brian

[Brian-Gaff]

One otter thing. Its often worth asking other churches what their experiences are. Itit could be jus t that you are dealing with a company who is a stickler for this sort of thing, maybe they just do not want to get involved and hope you go elsewhere. Brian

[Dave Plowman (News)]

As I said I've not looked myself, and my brother's DIY expertise doesn't really extend to electrics.

As regards the florries in question, they replaced the original pendant tungsten. Which would have not (usually) have an earth. But I assume the hall uses conduit, so an earth of sorts would be easily obtainable. Although I do realise conduit as earth isn't good enough these days.

[A.Lee]

Conduit is still as good an earth / circuit protective conductor as it ever was - you'll get a lower R2 reading with 20mm conduit compared to

1.5mm copper wire.

[Scott M]

I work with a chap who deals with a lot of churches of different types and my precis, while flippant, can cover quite a few of them!

It's a balance I suppose. On the one hand business is, much of the time, one step up from con-artistry - someone will install something for £500 which we could point to and say "but that's £50 from CPC." On the other hand, the costs involved in keeping a small firm's office going must be staggering and that £450 could equate to nothing more than Monday morning's salary bill.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Ah. I thought current regs required an ECC cable within the conduit.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It appeared to be a one man band. He did the design and specification, but the wiring etc needed had to be done by a contractor. His actual part was then just supplying and installing the equipment. And he also charged a (large) consultancy fee. But I wasn't impressed with the design either. It looked to me more suitable for a traditional church with pulpit and pews. This one is open plan, which the minister roaming all over it. To cover that, you need multiple small speakers - not a couple of large ones as in his spec.