Yes, it was under the bowl! Having the dishwasher near the sink makes sense from the point of view of using it as well of course. You can empty dregs etc. in the sink which, if nothing else, is usually less messy than dribbling them into the dishwasher.
wow, that's pretty incompetent for a so-called designer... what height was the worktop at - normal height plus 30 cm??!!!
I butchered the cabinet under the sink so that our (slim width) dishwasher would fit underneath the drainer. As far as practicality goes we're finding it an ideal position. As you say, emptying dregs and rinsing off debris is easy.
From the kitchen designers that I've had dealings with, they appear to be people who don't cook an awful lot. The old "work triangle" design with sink, fridge and hob at each apex is an efficient kitchen (but I realise this just isn't practical in many kitches - especially galley style ones). You really need some worktop space at both sides of the hob, worktop space on the non-drainer side of the sink and at least some other contiguous worktop space for preparation.
With suitable insulation between them I wouldn't see oven and fridge together as such a problem with modern appliances.
I'd really not want a hob flush against any tall unit - for safety I'd want to be able to remove a pan quickly from the hob in either direction.
But then, I'm fussy about these things....
cheers Richard
-- Richard Sampson
email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
My newer oven is also a better design than the previous (cheap) one. On the old one, the front of the body of the oven was flat around the edges, so any heat leakage past the rubber door seal went sideways. Then new one has a lip around the edge of the door to deflect the heat forward.
Something like: Old Oven: | | HOT | ====|_____ Cupboard ========== ::::::::::: ========== ::::::::::: ^Door got scorched at top of this edge. New Oven: | HOT | | ====---\ Cupboard ====== \ :::::::::: =========\ ::::::::::
I think it was Magnet did the 'design', it was also horribly expensive.
Most of the ones we met just took our 'we thought something like this' layout and built an (expensive) fitted kitchen around it. There was no input from them from the usability point of view and, if they couldn't understand what we wanted or their units couldn't do it, they just didn't bother.
In the end we spent a *long* time with bits of squared paper scribbling and throwing away ideas. Our problem is that we have a large kitchen but with two access points, an ordinary doorway on one long side and a wide archway into the adjacent breakfast room on the other long side. Thus the useful workspace is in two L shaped parts.
The original infelicity of the kitchen as we found it was that the dishwasher was tight in the corner of one of the Ls and thus, when it was open made that corner and the adjacent cupboard completely inaccessible. Moving the dishwasher to the end of the L, still adjacent to the sink was the fundamental 'right move' but it meant a lot of thinking about all the rest of the layout. Given the size of the kitchen we were able to fit a full double bowl sink in as well which is lovely compared with the old 1.5 bowl one, I never really saw any use for the 'half' bowl.
That was one of our other contraints, we wanted to get a 90cm hob in, with as you say, space for pans either side and that was quite difficult.
You mean you actually use the kitchen to cook/work in, I think lots of people don't. The long time we spent (several months of elapsed time) in thinking about our kitchen has really paid off. It's now a real pleasure to work in as just about everything is in the right place and we managed to get appliances that are good functionally too.
And would it be possible to site the hob next to the built in oven unit ?
Does the extractor need to be ducted, or is it a charcoal filtered type ?
What sort of wall units are you fitting ? Would the wall units be OK to sit the pipework on top of, from the extractor ?
Not really. One way would be in a fairly inaccessible corner, the other would give us nowhere reasonable to put our larder fridge.
Yes, the cornice could hide the ducting if absolutely necessary.
Mark W.
Have you any room in the middle to jut out? If you could do this in front of the window the you could put the hob there with one of those new trendy chimney hoods over and you'd be the worksurface depth from the window and not too far from the outside for a vent.
I remember from years ago when my mother put a hob next to a tall housing unit she had to leave a 15cm(?) gap on either side for fire regs. Make sure you are fairly close to a worksurface anyway, as you don't want to be jogging across the kitchen when you are lifting someting scalding hot out of the oven.
Give us a pic of your kitchen layout and let all the budding planners loose on it, it'll give u ideas at least.
Hi Mark
Many of the software packages used by the "pros" are available as a demo version. The one that I've used is kitchen draw see
I didn't spend a great deal of time looking at alternative packages but found this one to be very useful so far, I've still to finish off the kitchen design (...I've still to finish the plans for the extension as well), but it has proved very useful so far, and I will be using this package again as it looks like we're doing the bathroom over the winter and leaving the extension until next spring time.
cheers
David
Will ASCII art do?
+-----------------WWWWWWWWWWW-------------+ |TTTTTTTTTHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |TTTTTTTTTHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |DDDD OOOO|Internal wall WDDDD OOOO| WDDDD OOOO| WSSSS FFFF| WSSSS FFFF| |SSSS FFFF| |TTTT % /door %\ % / % \ back door %/ % \ | +-------%%%%%%----------------------------+ \ Internal wall \ door \W = window
The rest are our current thinking. O = oven F = Fridge S = sink D = dishwasher H = hob T = worktop
Mark W.
Yes, I've already had a go with Kitchen Draw. Not entirely intuitive IMHO (e.g. built in appliances). Also, it took KD support to find out which I couldn't place my windows on my walls. Height to top of windows 2.3m, height to top of walls 2.2m. Obvious really, but not easy to determine from the error message.
Mark W.
Good ascii art btw What are the dimensions of the room Mark? Esp this wall\ \
OOOO|Internal wall
OOOO|
OOOO|
FFFF|
FFFF|
FFFF|
% /door
% /
%/
|4.74m x 3.50m (approx. - not yet plastered).
Mark W.
What about this? Corner hob - its hard to do in ASCII. Neither oven or diswasher will be opening close to anything, so easy access. The fridge juts over the side window a bit, but if it's not too high then it wouldn't block too much. I think having an eyelevel oven is a good idea and keeping the hob away from it leads to more comforatable cooking. The corner hob would be near external walls for venting, but the extra worksurface souds keep it off the window for hygiene. You could then centre the sink and diswisher in the big window which would look balanced as you enter the kitchen.
+-------------------WWWWWWWWWWW---------------+ | TTHHHHTTTTTTTTTTDDDDSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |THHHHHHTTTTTTTTTDDDDSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |HHHHHH TTTTT|Internal wall WTTHH TTTTT| WTTTT TTTTT| WTTTT OOOO| WFFFF OOOO| |FFFFF OOOO| |FFFFF % /door %\ % / % \ back door %/ % \ | +-------%%%%%%------------------------------------------+I'll try that again.....
+-------------------WWWWWWWWWW----------------+ | TTHHHHTTTTTTTTTDDDSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |THHHHHHTTTTTTTTDDDSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT| |HHHHHH TTTTT|Internal WTTHH TTTTT|wall WTTTT TTTTT| WTTTT OOOO| WFFFF OOOO| |FFFFF OOOO| |FFFFF % /door %\ % / % \ back door %/ % \ | +-------%%%%%%------------------------------------+
Working from left to right
For reasons of boredom while washing the dishes I would put the sink under the window so you can look out while doing the dishes. Right hand drainer sink- dish washer underside. Hob where it is. Built in oven housing in corner - worktop - Fridge freezer where it is in in your original plan.
The short wall windows has a MUCH better view (open fields) vs the long wall (old farm buildings), so I'd rather keep the sink there. Also, within the limitations of ASCII art, the overlap of the fridge to the window would be nearly 50% the width of the fridge.
We did look at a corner hob but though it was too close to the sink if we put the sink in front of the 'nice' window.
Mark W.
Hmmm... I didn't think it was safe/desirable to locate an oven in the corner. Are you talking about a housing 'across' the corner? I've never seen one like that before.
Mark W.
Hi
I can just mention a few details that seem relevant to some options mentioned. First if there is anything tall close to the hob I'd want to cover the side of it in sheet stainless for fire safety and for cleaning. Chipboard corners dont survive repeated wetting (nor pan fires). Secondly an oven in a corner is a perfectly good position, position it at 45 degrees. Thirdly some ovens have fan cooled doors, so a hob over the oven can be a non issue with one of these. Even with an ordinary oven I've not found it any big deal myself.
Regards, NT
Also, with a hob above a floor-sitting oven, the one extractor hood covers steam (or smoke) from both. With separates, you may need a hood over the hob and some other type of extractor when the inevitable burned food happens.
When I get home, if I don't smell burning I conclude that tea is a salad... !
Mungo :-)
"Mungo Henning" wrote | When I get home, if I don't smell burning I conclude that tea | is a salad... !
And if you do smell burning, tea is going to be a salad when you've extinguished the oven :-)
Owain
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